Does God Not Want Me To Have A Baby?

Jesse 0:00

Okay, it's time for an update. It's time for my cheddar cheese crock update. I've talked about it in previous episodes, and it's time for an update. Not a single soul on this earth has ever given me a compliment on these shoes. Not a single one.

Doug 0:22

Nor should they.

Jesse 0:23

Nor should they. They are comments, not compliments. So they are, oh, look at your shoes. Oh, I wish I could pull something like that off. Oh, that was a choice. Then finally, finally, and I know, and I know why, because they're ugly. They're ugly. But I don't care.

Doug 0:40

They're not ugly, they're just I don't care. They're just they're unique. Yeah. They're they're a choice.

Jesse 0:46

They're a choice. But you know what? I don't care. Then finally, I'm walking out of our house, and our neighbor stops me, and she goes, Oh my gosh, I love your shoes. And I was like, I've made it. I've made it. And it was in front of you, which was even better because you make fun of these clonkers all the time.

Doug 1:08

You're to finish what she said.

Jesse 1:10

I am going to. And I was feeling like cloud nine. I was feeling like I've made it. And Doug heard it, and I've made it. And then as I'm walking away, she goes, Ugly's the new in. And I was like, there it is. There it is.

Doug 1:42

I was gonna, the real thing is that they make noise. There's something inside of the croc that's the other one. What could where is that? Where could that possibly be?

Jesse 1:55

I don't know. That's the croc update. Well, now that we've got that under control and we have the croc update, now we can actually get into the real meat of the podcast.

Doug 2:08

Now that we know where the state, the current state of your crocs, now we can move on. I'm gonna throw those crocs away sometimes. No, you're not? Or burn them.

Jesse 2:17

You're gonna bury me in them.

Doug 2:18

Do you think they'll ever burn? They are like they're made of some type of government plastic that never would cockroaches and these shoes.

Jesse 2:26

Today we chose a super simple, easy to understand, not complicated, not clunky at all topic. And that is a question that we get all the time in our process groups, which is does God want me to have a baby?

Doug 2:48

Not something that you would normally lead with.

Jesse 2:51

Probably not in any real conversation, actually.

Doug 2:54

No.

Jesse 2:54

Right.

Doug 2:55

I think it actually comes up. There's a lot of things that come up when you're struggling with infertility. You talk about the anxiety of treatment, the stress of it, the sadness of maybe the loss or the grief. But normally you don't lead with, does God not want me to have a baby? Right. But it's there in the more of the more vulnerable moments, you know? The more the moments where you're like, honestly, like this is hard, yes, and I'm sad and I'm like, I'm so over it. But but I'm also just wondering, does God hate me? Like, does God not want me to have a baby? Right. That's it's a more vulnerable thing, but it's very true for so many people. It's sort of like the the ache beneath the ache. Yeah. This like fear, the like, the like constant driving fear of like, maybe I'm just like not meant to have kids, you know. And maybe that's maybe you're like, it's not a God thing for you, but maybe you're like, I'm just not meant to have children. Right. Right. Does the universe not want me to have kids? Right.

Jesse 3:49

You could say it like that too.

Doug 3:49

Right. Yeah. I think there's a specific importance in saying, does God not want me to have a baby? Because it feels like what you are saying is that God wants a lot of people to have babies, and they wanted my friend Rachel to have a baby, but they don't want God doesn't want me to have a baby. Right. And that it becomes like personalized. Like, God, this thing that I believed in, this like this way that I viewed the world working, doesn't want me to have something. And it just feels cruel and vulnerable and scary. It comes up actually in groups all the time.

Jesse 4:18

Comes up in groups all the time. It's funny, it actually comes up as someone is processing, and that's funny that you said that because I didn't really think of it. At the end.

Doug 4:26

Yeah.

Jesse 4:27

At the end, when it's like, and I feel like what I'm left with is does God not want me to have a baby? Like it, like you get to like the existential whatever. I have no idea what I'm gonna say on this podcast. No idea. No idea. So buckle, yeah.

Doug 4:42

I'll say this. This is what I'm gonna say.

Jesse 4:44

Doug knows what he's gonna say, and I'm just gonna make like belittling comments and like just like add my little two cents to.

Doug 4:50

Desse's just going to basically talk crap on me the whole time while I'm trying to do it. No, not already.

Jesse 4:54

No, I'm not gonna talk crap. I'm just going to what you say, I'm gonna translate it into my own thoughts.

Doug 5:00

Yes, into the way humans speak.

Jesse 5:02

Yes, yeah, into the way humans speak. So buckle up buttercups. It's gonna be a bumpy ride.

Doug 5:07

Jesse, oh if you ever buckle up buttercups podcast. You have buckled up many times. Jesse's a big buckler up. She's very big on buckling up.

Jesse 5:17

I know. I am very big on. I love that word. I love that saying. I love that word. And I try to use it as much as possible.

Doug 5:23

It's gotta be from something. What's it from? Buckle up buttercup.

Jesse 5:28

I don't know if it's I don't know.

Doug 5:30

There's no way.

Jesse 5:31

I mean, yes, I did not make it up, but I can't remember a scene. Buckle up.

Doug 5:36

Uh drop that in the comments if you know where that's from. Yes. Please. We actually, I would really love to know. I actually do know what I want to say. I want to start. I'm glad one of us does. I want to start this conversation by saying that oftentimes I think a lot of fertility care, and I'm saying this in a good way, fertility care and mental health care surrounds this idea of protocols. Um habits for daily living that improve our health.

Jesse 6:06

Not only protocols is in like do this shot, eat this thing, go to acupuncture, whatever. You're talking about that, and just like it's good to go put your feet on grass and like walk, maybe, or whatever.

Doug 6:20

Protocol is a word I realize now that that often gets used during fertility treatments. Like, what's the protocol? But that's actually the like the right word for it. Like, whatever are what are my protocols? Like, what am I how much of this am I taking? How much of that am I taking? What time am I getting up?

Jesse 6:34

And this and this mental health protocols.

Doug 6:36

Yeah, and I think it's true for physical and mental health. Like during fertility, I think the the protocols for daily living, the healthy habits are a huge way to like treat and deal with fertility stuff that comes up. Right. I know when we went through IVF, there was like a lot of protocols we had. Took this medication at this time, this, this, this, this, you know. And then the same is true for mental health. Um, you could say there's a lot of protocols like move your body, get the the blood flowing, uh going.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

15 minutes of sun.

Doug 7:06

Yeah, look at the sunlight in the morning. Um, don't like sit in a dark room and scroll on your phone. Like the research has showed it. Right, totally.

Jesse 7:13

Don't do that.

Doug 7:14

The research show never do that. Showed that that, you know, it's not like like oh the worst thing, but it's it can over time can lead to some like feeling like oh, I just feel kind of blue and out of it. Right, right, right.

Jesse 7:24

Um, so there's always everyone knows mental health routine, yoga, like stuff like that. There's just there's things that people say yoga, what are you doing?

Doug 7:32

Oh, yoga, yoga, do some yoga, some stress, like stretching, mental health protocol. Yeah, and even and even beyond just like the physical mental health stuff of like stretching, all that kind of stuff, uh talking to a loved one and um you know, seeing a therapist and stuff. And there's like these things that you go to a therapist and you're like, I've just been feeling stressed. Right. Let's talk about how to manage stress. And I've been feeling just kind of sad about all that makes sense. And then what we have found in the years of walking through infertility with people, all of that happens, and we need all of that. All A plus, A plus. Of course. Sometimes at the end of the day, though, there's these lingering questions that just I don't know. There's no amount of sunlight which would touch this question, which is does God not want me to have a baby? There's no protocol to get to that question, right? You know, there's no like what vitamin I, you know, thank you, Doctor, for the list. I don't see existential religious dread on here. Is there a medication for that?

Jesse 8:34

Is there a pill? How often do I have to go look at the sun to make that go away?

Doug 8:39

No, yes, sort of like at the end of the day, you're like, all right, are you feeling a little better? We've talked about this stuff. You're like, yeah, there's just one thing lingering. I think God hates me. And I laugh because it's like absurd, but it's so true. Right. It's true for me, it's true for you. And it's not something that's like funny, it is something like serious, like, no, no, like literally, I think, like, am I cursed? Does God hate me? Does God not want me to have a baby? And that question, it's I would just set it up by saying, I'm glad we're talking about it because it's important, it's very important, and oftentimes I don't think I know where it fits, and I don't think other people with that. Where do you bring up that? That's just a big thing to bring up. And you're like sitting at coffee with a friend, you're like, Yeah, we've been, we've been trying a little bit, you know, it's kind of hard for us. And I think God hates me. And then, you know, we'll see a doctor about that.

Jesse 9:38

Right, right, right, right. I like that you said, like, is there, I don't think there's an amount of sunlight that you can put on your morning routine for that question to be answered. Like the and I I can think of like five more like that with infertility of like, I don't know why I'm going blank, but like that one is so big of like, does God know what me to have a baby? Like, how do you answer that? How do you get questions, your mental health to be better with that question? It's just that's really hard.

Doug 10:07

I feel like questions that are in that category are like, um, maybe I'm not supposed to be a mom. Maybe I'm not supposed to be a dad. Like, maybe uh Maybe I'm not good at this. Maybe I'm like not good at this. Maybe I'm like broken as a person.

Jesse 10:18

Maybe I don't really want this. That happens a lot.

Doug 10:20

Honestly, the the one about God is huge because it feels like, oh, oh, uh what?

SPEAKER_03 10:26

Right.

Doug 10:26

You know, if you were like, maybe I'm just like not meant to be a mom, I think someone could be like, oh, I know that infertility makes us feel that. And then making the jump to, well, I think just God maybe just doesn't want me to have a baby. It's like, I think a lot of people don't know what to say in response to that.

Jesse 10:40

Right.

Doug 10:40

So then it makes you almost not want to talk about it.

Jesse 10:42

Well, and then especially that can make you feel like God doesn't want you to have a baby, especially if you're being vulnerable with that person. Yeah. And before you even, if you even say, I'm not sure if God wants me to have a baby, and you're talking to someone that maybe is more of a faith-based person, they might say something that confirms that fear even more.

Doug 11:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jesse 11:02

You know what I mean? Like good things happen to those who wait. Yeah. Well, pray and it will go away. Pray and it will go away. Or God's gonna give you a. Yes, God's just testing you, or God's gonna give you that miracle baby. You know what I mean? Are you is your faith like a mustard thie done or whatever the crap that means? You know what I mean?

Doug 11:17

Like, so I feel like that is a part of the Bible in Christianity.

Jesse 11:22

It shouldn't be, honestly. Just kidding. Just kidding. But like, but it's I think that also when you are in faith-based communities, yeah. Why you have this question is because when you sit with people and you tell them that you potentially tell them what's going on with you, that sometimes can be your response back. Yeah. And only thing that does is confirm the fear. Just like if someone says, have a glass of wine, it only reconfirms that it is your fault. You should be drinking and then it would happen. Or you know, you should go on vacation, or you should do whatever. It's like it, it that only confirms that it's your fault.

Doug 12:01

Yeah.

Jesse 12:01

And this, like those comments of like, just wait, or you know, pray about it, or God's gonna give you a miracle one day or whatever, that just confirms this fear. Then then what if it doesn't? Yeah. And it's not happening. So what does that mean?

Doug 12:15

Um there's a lot. Uh so my background apparently I do have something to say about podcast. My background is I have I studied philosophy and I studied philosophy of religion. Um, specifically, I studied a lot of like the big like uh big religions. Yeah, the big rel. Well, they're not all, they're all big and they're all important, but I studied a lot of the like atheistic religions. So the like a god, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, like, yeah. So when when there's like one God and then there's like an a whole ecosystem of God, that's like sort of the religions that I studied. Although I do know a lot about the other gods, I think there's a very big dividing line between those types of uh expressions of faith. I think when you're thinking of God, like when your just mind goes like, God, does God want me to have a baby or not? I think people have answered that question all sorts of ways. There's a famous story in the Christian Bible where somebody is blind and they ask Jesus, they say, Who sinned? Basically, like, who is like not living correctly that this guy would be blind? Right, right. And Jesus like famously says, like, no, that's not how that's not what's going on here.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Right.

Doug 13:23

Um, but I think that that there's a natural inclination there to think, like, what went wrong? So God, like, a like who made a mistake and why am I being cursed for this? I think there are people, even in our modern world now, who would look at a someone not being able to get pregnant and say, This is God doing something in your life and making you wait, or God is choosing, teaching you something, or choosing for you not to have a child. So there's the spectrum is wide. So you may even come from a tradition where you're like, no, pregnancy is a gift from God. And if I am not getting pregnant, then the gift is being withheld from me. Right. So to combat that. Right. And then on the other side, it's maybe just sort of nebulous, like, you know, your pastor or your priest or or or whoever, you know, is leading your community. Faith leader. Your faith leader is is like knows about fertility stuff, and they have all those stories of fertility from you know the traditions, and then it's just really not talked about that much. And then maybe you go up to them and they're like, Oh yeah, I just feel like I'm cursed, like God hates me. And they're like, No, no, that's not it. And you're just like, that's sort of where you're left with it. So you're like lost. Yes. Or maybe you're like, no, I really do feel strongly that God is doesn't want this for me. I feel lost about it. I feel like don't know where to go. That's why the question looms and it just sits there. No one, there's not a great real response to it, and then no one really feels comfortable talking about it. Yeah. So that's why we're doing it today. That's why we're here.

Jesse 14:52

That's why we're here. Welcome. Welcome to the podcast. That was the longest. Is that was that the intro?

Doug 14:58

No, I just think uh trying to like place the conversation into yeah, why is this so hard to talk about? Is there's traditions that actually would be like, yes, God is holding this back. So it's like that's not a very safe place to talk about it. Right. Right. And on the other side, it's sort of just like, I don't know, that's a big tough question. Who knows what the answer is? Right. And then everything in between, you just kind of feel uncomfortable talking about it. Before we move on to trying to think about answer the question. Well, and not even answering it, but well, yeah, answering it. Right. We should try to answer that question. Right. I think it's important to think about what that question feels like. Yes. Like you're sitting there, you're going through all this stuff, and the thought sneaks into your head. Maybe just God doesn't want me to have a baby. Maybe God wanted my friend, Megan, Eric, and uh like couldn't think of another name. Could not think of a single other name on Planet Earth. Brian, Matthew. It was just gone. I think I thought of the name Dumbledore.

Jesse 16:05

Dumbledore. Next, Gandalf. Frodo.

Doug 16:09

Oh my gosh. I am I carry. I apologize, everyone. This is a very serious topic. But my brain went blank, and only Dumbledore was there.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

It's because we watched it this weekend. Oh my gosh. Such a common name, Dumbledore.

Doug 16:24

I'm sitting there thinking, all these other all my other friends. Sorry. Okay. Back on track. You're sitting there thinking all my other friends, what the heck? God, like, do I it's just, I guess I'm the one who doesn't get to have a baby. And that thought sneaks in, and you're like, I don't even know where to start.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Right.

Doug 16:47

Maybe you're thinking, yeah, God is not letting me have this happen. Right, right. Or you're thinking, like, I don't think God's like that. Right. God loves me and wants good things for me. Why wouldn't God want me to have a baby? And you're just lost.

Jesse 16:59

Yes.

Doug 17:00

So I think sitting with what that feels like is an important part. Like you, it's easy to move on real quickly to be like, oh, I gotta answer this question.

Jesse 17:07

And literally, as you were like doing that with your body, I was like, and then you just get confused and you're like, no think about it. Like that's what I would do. Like, oh, I don't know. That feels too complicated. Bye. Yeah, but it's even in my own brain. But it is there.

Doug 17:18

What feelings do you feel like come up for people in our groups?

Jesse 17:23

I think I've heard a lot of people say that they feel like they're cursed. That this is because of some sin that they did when they were in high school or in college. I smoked pot, I did this, I like whatever, and it's coming back to haunt me.

Doug 17:39

Yeah.

Jesse 17:40

Um, and so I think that they think that God is literally like holding it up there, like, no, no, no, no, no, because you did this thing. Um, and smoking pot was like a silly example, like it could be silly, like a big, like whatever. Um, I think people think that God's trying to teach them something, like patience, yeah, something. It just feels, I feel like, confusing is the main emotion that I felt and I feel in people is me growing up. I was told, and I'm simplifying this, but I was told, pray. And that's how you get stuff.

Doug 18:12

Yeah.

Jesse 18:14

So, you know, my five-year-old self was, I really want this doll for Christmas Molly from American Girl doll. I really want the Molly girl from American Girl doll. Whatever. And it's like, and for some people, that does work out. Not everybody, but that does work out. So I think in the way I was brought up, it was very like, oh, okay, that's when you get what you want. And if you don't, if you're not getting what you want, I think what people would say is, well, maybe you're learning patience, or maybe you're learning this or that, or whatever. So it was kind of that dynamic for me that it was like, oh, when you pray and you don't get something, then that must mean that God doesn't want you to have that yet.

Doug 18:56

Right.

Jesse 18:56

So infertility was my first one that actually probably mattered. I'm sure I prayed for a bike and got up, didn't get something or something, but like something that was actually like deep and like really a deep desire of mine.

Doug 19:08

Yeah, a huge part of your life, yeah.

Jesse 19:10

Huge part of my of my desire of my heart. And um it didn't happen.

Doug 19:17

Yeah.

Jesse 19:18

And that was very confusing. I felt like it was almost to a point of like ungrounding. So I feel that in people. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I had this ground that I didn't think that God would give me anything I wanted. Like if I prayed for a million dollars, it would be like, oh, it's like something pure, something pure hearted, which is wanting to have a baby.

Doug 19:38

Like friends or something like that.

Jesse 19:40

Yes, I want some friends, or I want like, you know, whatever. I want to go to this college, or I want to go whatever. And it's like this one was actually really tender and really meaningful and didn't feel like it was a selfish thing to want.

Doug 19:52

Yeah. Almost like just a good thing.

Jesse 19:55

Like a good thing to want. And then I did it for us. We literally were like uh I almost said united, anointed in oil, had a full-on prayer thing for us to go into IVF, and it didn't work. So I would say if you want to put a pin in when complication with prayer life happened for Jesse Brown, just put a pin right there.

Doug 20:19

Right.

Jesse 20:19

It's like right in that pin. Like, what does that mean?

Doug 20:21

What did it feel like?

Jesse 20:23

For me, it felt confusing.

Doug 20:25

You said it. I think it's very true.

Jesse 20:27

Ungrounding, um, swirly, if that's a feeling. What the freak does this mean now? This is not gonna be an episode where we have an E, so I'll refrain the F words as the last podcast. But no, I feel like it feels ungrounding. Wait, wait, wait, what do I do now? And then what does it feel like? It feels like you have to answer these huge questions. Does he not want me to have this? Does God not want me to have this? Like, what does this mean? And I think it just messes for some people, it can really shake up your faith. And I think that's what happened for me. Yeah. Of just like not that I didn't think God was real anymore, it just made it really complicated and messy. And I would say, what's like a despair? I felt like despair. Like lost, kind of, yeah. Lost and angry. Angry.

unknown 21:20

Yeah.

Jesse 21:21

Angry. Why the didn't that work?

Doug 21:24

Yeah.

Jesse 21:26

You say you're good. Not all the way good.

Doug 21:30

Good, but not for me.

Jesse 21:31

Yeah, good, but not for me. It's like that is really, really, really that was really hard for me.

Doug 21:36

Yeah.

Jesse 21:37

And some honestly, if I'm being honest and vulnerable, it's still hard for me. Of like, wait, what? You'd be so good at that. And I think I think where my ugliness would be is I love Disneyland. So I would go to Disneyland a lot when we were struggling with infertility, and I would see some really bad parenting. And that's where I feel like with God, I'd be like, Right. I wouldn't do that.

Doug 22:00

Right.

Jesse 22:00

I wouldn't do those things. I wouldn't yell like that. I wouldn't like, I wouldn't do that. Like I would be good at this. And then I feel like that's what it would be like. Like, why did you bless them with this and not bless me? It feels like that. It feels like I didn't deserve the blessing. And then what happens too is when you have a baby in faith-based communities, what do people say?

Doug 22:22

What a blessing from God. Praise God. Yeah.

Jesse 22:25

So what the what does that mean? I keep saying that. I'm like, I'm used to, you know, being able to say the F word whenever I wanted. Like last episode. No. But like I feel like then what does that mean? So if it's if he's blessing them, then what does that mean for me? I'm don't get the blessing. That's really hard to figure out. It's really hard. And I think it makes people do one of two things, go, or a couple things. Either go and like try to be a better person and pray and try to get it even more, or you just are sitting in the world of just, I'm confused. I don't know if I want to think about this. I'm confused. I'll deal with this later. Or it really makes you rock your faith and be like, I'm out.

Doug 23:04

Yeah.

Jesse 23:04

I don't want to do that. I feel like I'm in more in the middle of like, I'm confused. I don't really want to think about this. I don't like this, but I don't know what to do with this.

Doug 23:11

Yeah.

Jesse 23:12

So I'll just sit here for a while. Um, but I think those three things can happen where it kind of is like to make sense of it, you either push harder and go, I'm gonna pray more, I'm gonna lean more into this. And none of this is bad. I'm not saying any of this is bad. Or the middle is me, more just like an avoidance attitude, or it really can rock your faith, and you're like, get me the freak out of this. Yeah, this doesn't do anything good. I've seen all of those and everywhere in between in our process groups. Right. Trying to answer this question Does God want me to have a baby? You either lean, yes, so let me do it more and lean into it more. I have no idea, I'm just confused, let me just sit in the confusion, or I'm out. He doesn't, and it's not good, and I'm out.

Doug 23:56

Right. I think that makes complete sense given what God and faith and religion for a lot of people is.

Jesse 24:05

Yes. Especially growing up in the 90s.

Doug 24:08

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, I it could be anything, you know, like it's a it's a global thing.

Jesse 24:15

I just aged myself.

Doug 24:16

Yeah. Whoa, just nineties. In the 90s. I think that faith and God and all of that for many, many people is the the system, like the ecosystem where everything exists and how you make sense of everything, how you make sense of like right and wrong, how to get things in life, how to like why things happen to some people and things happen to other people. It's sort of just like the it's the whole deck of cards. Right. So if you keep playing hands that you know work and have worked for the last 23 years, and then all of a sudden someone goes, Oh, you uh that isn't you lose. And you're like, wait, that no that's how I that's the rule. Like, that's the cards I have. Right. And I played the cards right, right? And the dealer goes, Yeah, you know, sorry. And then you must And the dealer is God. I just dealer is God. You would do one of those three things. You would be like, Well, okay, I must be playing these cards wrong. Let me let me like really think about this, or you'd be like, What just happened to the game?

Jesse 25:26

I don't want to think about this.

Doug 25:27

Or you'd be like, I'm not playing this anymore.

Jesse 25:29

Yes.

Doug 25:29

Yeah. I think that makes sense if if that's the way that sort of And people could be everywhere in between. Totally.

Jesse 25:36

That spectrum.

Doug 25:38

I think that people that we've seen in our groups who don't really have any kind of connection to God still in a weird way feel this way a little bit. And it's not necessarily there's no like um uh like creator of the universe that is doing this, it's sort of just the unwritten rules of life, right? You know, right? The unwritten like karma or yeah, just like the way the world works, or sort of just like the cultural understanding of the world. I do this and then this happens. I work really hard and then this works. And God can be a part of that a lot of times, but sometimes God's not part of that. Yeah, and it's still the same kind of thing. Right. But when when there's an object, the when there's a dealer that is so clearly defined, like God, it just totally messes with you. And I think for me, causes isolation because it's you lose so much of the connection in the community where those things existed, right? That you're like, I don't know where to go anymore. You know, I don't know who to talk to anymore. Can't talk to my mom. My mom is like the most Christian person that ever, and she's great, but like if I just talk to her about that, she's just gonna tell me, you know, to pray about it. Or my mom is so heavily religious that and like she's going to immediately tell me, like, have you prayed to, you know, have you prayed these prayers? Have you done this? Have you been going to temple? Have you been going to this? Have you been going to, you know, all that kind of stuff? And you're like, okay, that's not a safe place to talk to anymore. Well, well, like that hurts because that's your person, you know. That's your person who you would normally go to, right? But they lean so heavily on that, and that's the thing that you're doubting. Yeah. You know, so isolation to me, that's the number.

Jesse 27:17

It's like that's the thing that you connected on. That's the thing that you connected on. And so now it's like, why do I want to talk about that with this person when it's super complicated for me?

Doug 27:27

Right. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jesse 27:28

And I think that's not a lot in faith-based communities either. Right. Or at least the ones that I have been a part of. It's like, it doesn't feel like there's much room of like, it's just really confusing for me right now. You know what I mean? Yeah. It feels like that to me. Maybe not everyone. Maybe not everyone.

Doug 27:46

I think that they're just as confused about that topic, and they're like, Man, I really wish that this wasn't happening to you as well. Because it, I don't know. This is a hard thing to make sense of.

Jesse 27:56

It's like they're almost like, you're game more.

Doug 27:58

I think they're like, You're great. This sucks. I don't know what to do about it. You know, I think they're sort of sitting with you too, going like, uh wow, it's really interesting. You really think so? Yeah, I think so. I think like the life when it gets complicated, when difficult things happen in life, it puts a lot of pressure on us to integrate those things into our belief systems, our lives, the way we view the world, um, our philosophies, our psychologies. We have to integrate bad things. Integrating bad things is hard to do. No one likes to do it.

Jesse 28:30

No, no one, you not only do we not like to do it, we like we want to avoid it. Our bodies go, nope.

Doug 28:36

You, your parents, your siblings, the person who runs the church, the you know, everyone is like, I don't want to incorporate hard stuff.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

Right.

Doug 28:47

This is the hardest thing to incorporate. I want to have a baby and I can't have a baby. Right. And you're looking at everyone and they're all going like this, ooh, uh, yeah, ooh, shoot.

Jesse 28:55

You know, then the only thing they say is, well, that's a blessing from God.

Doug 28:58

Right. So what do we do with you? Yeah, a lot of like that story in the Bible is a famous story, and I think it actually makes a lot of sense of what normally we do. We search for like, well, what happened? What went wrong? Yeah, what's going wrong? The story where they they bring this guy to Jesus and he he can't see. Yes. And he all he can do is sort of like beg for money, and they're like, Well, who who sinned? Who blew it? You know, was it this guy or was it his parents? You know, and they would have after that would have been like, or his parents' parents. Right. Because they have to, there's gotta draw a line of like this person messed up, now this has happened.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

Right.

Doug 29:34

And that makes sense of how we think oftentimes, you know. Jesus in the story obviously says no one did, you know, which totally blows the whole thing apart.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Right.

Doug 29:43

Which is a good starting point for if you're trying to figure out where to answer that question. Maybe if you come from the Christian religion, if you're low, if you're trying to figure out does God not want me to have a baby, does God hate me? That would be a good story to read over and over and over again. Right, right. Which we can talk about in a second. But I just think it's important to sit with how how isolating and lonely and confusing.

Jesse 30:06

Great. Another place to be isolated. Faith communities.

Doug 30:11

And frustrated and just like maddening that question is. And we want to try to solve it as fast as possible. But sitting with how much it hurts is probably good. Probably. Even though I hate doing that kind of stuff. I hate integrating bad things. Not my favorite.

Jesse 30:29

So, how the heck do we answer this question? Doug? Mr. Philosophy?

Doug 30:35

I don't think you have to answer it.

Jesse 30:37

Oh, that is the most philosophy thing I've ever heard in my life. Thank you all for being here so you can see what it's like being married to this woman.

Doug 30:46

Let's define terms. No, that's another question. Let's go find question.

Jesse 30:49

Let's go find question.

Doug 30:51

No.

Jesse 30:52

No. I love you, Mr. Philosophy, but I feel like we have to like start off by actually answering the question of like, does God not want me to have a baby? And I feel like, in short, just to like say it off the bat, I don't feel like whatever you think about higher power or God or the universe, I just don't think that's true. I don't think that he's up there like an alien or she or whatever, alien switchboard, like rocket shipboard. I was thinking about that Pixar short. You know what I mean? Like, like the rocket shipboard being like, yes to Janet, no to this, yes to this, and no to that. Yes to Dumbledore, no to like I don't think so. The only thing that I say like I say that is I don't have anything else to say besides that. Like it's just your intuition. My intuition, that's about that's a good word. My intuition is no, of course not. That I think though is where I get stuck. Is it's like, but then what do I do with this? Because I actually don't think so. And I would tell the person, no, I don't think that it is like Janet says yes, Karen says no, Aubrey gets a yes, Samantha gets a no. Like, I don't think that's what it is like, but I don't know what to do beyond that. Yes, I don't know how to I guess my thought is I don't know how to integrate it past that. I don't think so. And I tell people this all the time on our podcast. I don't think that God, universe, whatever, wants out of you.

Doug 32:32

Right.

Jesse 32:32

But I almost don't know what else to say.

Doug 32:34

I think let's just talk plainly about it for a second. I think most people, I don't want to speak for everyone, but most people are like God, they have an intuition that God is not like, yes, you don't get pregnant. You get pregnant.

Jesse 32:46

Then I feel like it's so complicated with, and I feel like this is just me and welcome to my therapy session. So complicated with prayer, then.

Doug 32:52

Mm-hmm. Right.

Jesse 32:55

Prayer is difficult.

Doug 32:56

Right. I think let me finish that my thought. Is okay.

Jesse 32:59

I think maybe that's another podcast.

Doug 33:00

I think people have an intuition that God's not like that, and that the the world is not like that. Yeah. That you know, this person just randomly had something bad to happen on this person, and or I think the the people view that God is a loving God. Most people in faith um communities, right? God is a loving God, God wants good things for his people, and God is trying to bestow all these blessings on us. And and it's not like, oh, you are I'm gonna just like in faith-based communities, they say nice things about God. Yes, I'm like, they're not thinking God is just going to like screw them. I think that's the the intuition. I think why this episode is important, why this topic is important is because it just doesn't sit right then. Yes, you're not pregnant. Right. Right. That's the whole problem.

Jesse 33:42

So how do I integrate that?

Doug 33:44

That's the whole problem. So I don't think if you were to pressure someone, like put them in a corner or put them on a stand and be like, Do you think that God does this? They would go, No, I believe God is good. Really? I believe God is good. I think. But I think they would say God is good. And then and then quietly they like behind the scenes, they would say, But this makes no sense then.

Jesse 34:02

Yeah, and then then and I think maybe some people would say he's not good then.

Doug 34:04

Like I think that's what's that's where the intuition doesn't match the reality. And that's what is so confusing for people. Is my intuition is this, but my reality is this. My intuition is that God is loving and cares for me. Right. And but my reality feels like God does not love me and he's not caring for me. Right. So it's not, it's not really like being able to answer the questions. The it's the disconnect between those two feelings that brings up all the problems.

Jesse 34:33

And that's why I brought you here, Doug. So Mr. Philosophy.

Doug 34:38

I'm gonna say one caveat, right? One caveat is that um I think again, I'm talking about God in a way that's like there is a God, right? And that this God is like a loving, good God. Right. There are religions and there are like expressions of under and understandings and thinkings of God or gods that gods are mean and are playing tricks on us. Like the Romans classically viewed the gods like a pantheon, and the gods were just people that I mean, yeah, I'm sure there is the Romans still gods, like have that faith. Yeah, it's that that specific like view of God and gods is sort of like an old an older expression. I don't know if there's like a big vibrant Zeus community. Maybe honestly, there might be actually. I shouldn't say that there isn't, because there totally could be. Right, right. Um, but that like that famously that's how they made sense of it. So if we want to rewind history a little bit, how do you make sense that like bad things happen to like uh you know uh this guy, Sapphire's or something like that, your friend? That's the only Roman name. I don't know if that's a Roman name. Didn't go with Dumbledore again, or like uh what's a Roman name?

Jesse 35:46

Uh uh uh uh Art Art Art Art Hercules! Hercules, but that guy's a good, isn't that a good god?

Doug 35:55

Um Hercules was the son of a god, but Achilles! That's also uh uh a son of a god. Um but say you have a friend What was the gladiator's name?

Jesse 36:04

What was his name?

Doug 36:05

Uh Marcus Aurelius.

Jesse 36:06

Marcus Aurelius, there it is.

Doug 36:09

I knew it was good. Say you have Marcus Aurelius, right? Like, what's going on there? What like what like yeah, he's in a bad state. God very much so destroyed. Right. I think the Romans, who were a very well-defined, very intellectual, very smart, very developed culture, um, they the way that they made sense of this inherent like contradiction that that no, the gods are good. Wait, but why are all these bad things happening? Is they said, Well, the gods play tricks. That sometimes you can anger the gods, and there they have tempers just like we do. Just how we get angry and punish someone, they do the same thing. So the goal is to find favor in the eyes of the gods. Right. But so they're like they had to make sense of it. I think what what has happened is sort of we have we've moved to a place where we have some different expressions of God and we sing songs that are like, or we sing songs, we we read books, we write literature, read poems, have prayers that are like God is all good all the time, God knows everything and is the perfect judge, and he is almighty. So then that makes it a little hard to connect that with your experience if you're like, well, then I must be doing something wrong. Right. Would led to like in the Jewish Jewish tradition, them asking Jesus who sinned this guy or his parents. Right. So they're trying to make sense of it. Right. The Romans would never do that, they would just be like, Oh, the gods hate him.

Jesse 37:36

Yeah, they didn't like him.

Doug 37:38

Question, easy answer. He's angered the gods, you know. Right. Or if you think about a popular movie nowadays, um, or the oldest story of all time, but also a popular movie. Um, we just saw it. Um, The Odyssey. The Odyssey, where he shoots the bow.

SPEAKER_03 37:53

Yeah.

Doug 37:53

Um, the whole thing is built on angering the gods or being like finding favor in the gods. Uh I don't think I picked up on that part. The main character.

Jesse 38:02

Oh, yes, I did. Yes, I did.

Doug 38:03

The main character played by Matt Jamin. Uh uh, he shoots the one-eyed monster in the eye, and they kind of play a trick on him and they sneak out of his cave. Right. Well, that one-eyed monster is the son of Ploseidon, the god of the sea. So as soon as they get back into the sea, Ploseidon's like, well, screw you. And makes him get lost forever.

Jesse 38:26

Too many Greek names confuses me. They they throw around these names, and I'm like, who? Which god of what? Just give me Thor. God of Thunder. I'm like, I can follow that.

Doug 38:35

After a long time, he's sort of paying his pet to that together. And I think it's Is that obvious in the movie? I I don't know. I think Calypso, it's the that that's who it is, kind of convinces you know, Poseidon, like, just let him go home. Finally gets home after like 20-something years. Right, okay. But that's the way they made sense of it. You fast forward now. You know, if someone were in one of our process groups and they were saying, just feel like God is angry at me. Right. You wouldn't be like, Well, yeah, what it is, what God, or you know, clearly you pissed off God.

SPEAKER_01 39:08

Right.

Doug 39:08

It would just feel wrong. Like, right. It wouldn't make even sense to of our intuition of God, and it also wouldn't make sense of our like sort of current theology of God in a lot of different religions. Right. So there's all that to be said. I think the I'm not trying to say that people are not thinking clearly about it or or they haven't done due diligence in thinking about it. I'm trying to say that there's just this weird contradiction.

Jesse 39:31

Yes, right. I think you said it perfectly. I think almost like I'm not saying that that whatever, the Greek, whatever. I love how you said, I don't know if there's a lot of Zeus fans right now. That was hilarious. Um, but and maybe there is, and I don't know. Team Zeus. I hope I didn't offend anyone by that. But um, but I like how it's almost like that would be easier to integrate. It it that would be easier.

Doug 39:56

There's a lot of intuition.

Jesse 39:58

I almost felt like a sense of relief. Like, ah, yeah, if it was just like a God that didn't like you, like if you think about like the Holy Spirit, Jesus, whatever, yeah. It's like, oh, just one of them doesn't like you.

Doug 40:06

You're like, oh, yeah, well, you clearly pissed off Jesus.

Jesse 40:10

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's like, well, you're on the shit with Holy Spirit right now, so I want to clean it up. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like that would almost be easier to integrate.

Doug 40:19

I don't think anyone has ever said that sentence to me before, which makes me happy.

Jesse 40:24

But it's like the it's yeah, I just I don't know. It almost feels easier to integrate that idea than this. I think that's where I'm confused. Yeah. And if I would say that, like on that graph that I said of like how you try to answer this question is you lean in, you avoid, or you're out. I feel like a lot of people, not everybody, but a lot of people are in that middle ground. Yeah. And that's what you're trying to like figure out and avoid of like, wait, what? You're trying to you're trying to understand.

Doug 40:50

Yeah, you're trying to resolve the inherent contradiction that you feel. Yes. My intuition is that God is good and all and loving and loves me. And but my my current reality is that I'm going through infertility, which makes me want to feel like he doesn't isolated and out of it and that God hates me. Right. How do I make sense of that contradiction? I think you do one of those three things. Right. You're like, well, let me just really be the best Christian or whatever. Yeah, the best like follower of God of all time. Right.

Jesse 41:18

You know, lean into it.

Doug 41:20

You just go, uh, I don't know. I don't know. I'm confused. I don't know. I'm just good for in this whole thing. Right, right. I think that that makes sense of that.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

Right, right.

Doug 41:28

Okay. Without further ado, I think the the way you sort of can get a little bit clearer on that contradiction without having to maybe spend too much time in one of those categories, is you divide the problem into two problems. The there you go. This is so we had one problem.

Jesse 41:47

Now we're gonna add another problem to the problem. So now we have two problems. You thought you only had one. Does God not want me to have a baby? Now you have two.

Doug 41:55

Split the problem in two. Once you split the we're gonna do some math, any math majors out there, split the problem into two. And then now that you have two problems, one of them, which is where the contradiction lies, is easier to solve. And then the other one doesn't necessarily have to have the type, you know, a clear answer, which basically I'm saying split them into two problems. The first problem is an intellectual problem, the second problem is an emotional problem. So this problem of does God not want me to have a baby, like that inherent contradiction, is both logical and emotional. I think as we try to solve them both at the same time, we get lost. Yeah. So that's clearly me. So the intellectual side is easier to solve. Like, does God not want me to have a baby? Is God choosing who gets what? Is God evil? Like, how do you make sense of evil in the world? Like, how do you make sense of bad things happening to good people? Right. If you just logically try to solve that, you can logically solve that. Albeit philosophically complicated answer. But there is a way to solve that, right? To retain God's goodness and to have God be all good, and it's you're you're not being punished, you're not being cursed. Right. So then what's left is the emotional problem of this just sucks. Right. Because I feel like God is all loving and all good. And how come I don't get any of that stuff?

Jesse 43:21

Which by the way, let's pause one second.

Doug 43:22

Yes.

Jesse 43:23

To answer that logical part, we do have an episode called Why Does Bad Happy.

Doug 43:28

Why do bad things happen to good people?

Jesse 43:29

And we talk about that, that probably intellectual side more.

Doug 43:32

Yeah. And that that whole episode is about that split and just really about the logical side. Yeah.

Jesse 43:39

So pause.

Doug 43:40

It's a tough conversation, though. It's complicated. Yeah, it's complicated. All you have to say is is there a way that God can be completely good and there's all this like suffering in the world? Right. Yes. Yes. Right. Theologians and philosophers have done that for a long time. That's why we're not, that's why, that's actually what in a lot of ways. Is what replaced some of that like Roman thinking was this, and the way they did that was through some of that philosophical theological thinking. So solving that logical problem, which if you're like really needing that, that's really helpful to think through the logical problem.

Jesse 44:16

Yes. And that episode Why do good things happen? Why do bad things happen to good people? We talk a lot about that.

Doug 44:22

On the emotional side, I think the way you solve that problem is the psychological skill of integration. How do you process bad things? How do you allow an emotionally difficult, emotionally painful thing to exist in your life? You have to grieve it, talk about it, share with people about it. It's just all the skills of bringing a negative thing into our life. There's a lot of negative realities. How do you bring those negative realities in? Usually, like if you're like if you like read all the psychology, everyone says grief, right? Going for a long walk, crying about it, expressing your feelings, telling the story to people, talking to your spouse about it if you have a spouse. You know, if you're part of a faith community, telling them what you feel about it in healthy ways, healthy ways, if they're open to it and they're safe people, but you know, processing it out with them. And and and that's how you're working through the emotional problem. If you try to solve the emotional problem and the logical problem the exact same time, that's right. I have personally seen a lot of people get lost.

Jesse 45:28

Right, because it seems too big.

Doug 45:29

Well, you you just bounce and bounce back and forth between the two all the time. You're like, and you it can be hard to solve one when you're trying to solve both.

Jesse 45:38

But I hear you on the integration, I hear you on the grief. But I guess, I guess I see what you're saying. I feel like you should start intellectually, though.

Doug 45:49

Some people though don't need to.

Jesse 45:51

I know, I know, but for me, I would need to answer the question first.

Doug 45:54

Yeah.

Jesse 45:55

Of like, does he not want me to have a baby? Is that how it works? I want to start there. And if it led me to, of course he does. I would say of course he does.

Doug 46:07

And so what do I do with that is I grieve, but if I'm grieving that he's not giving it to me, or am I just grieving he's yeah, I would say from all of my studies and from what I have like the for most of the religions.

Jesse 46:23

How many times on this podcast have you wanted to say from my studies?

Doug 46:27

From my studies, from my studies wants you to have a baby. Simple. God wants good things for all people. God is all powerful and all-loving and wants good things for all people, or definitely his followers, God's followers, you know. Right. If it's not all people, it's definitely God's followers. So what do you and if you're wondering, have I been faithful enough by most standards? Yes, totally.

Jesse 46:55

Right, right, right. This is not a curse coming back to haunt you.

Doug 46:57

This is not a curse coming back to haunt you. God wants good things in the haunt.

Jesse 47:01

There's a lot more sinners that are getting pregnant.

Doug 47:03

So if that's true, totally, then you know, God, if if in every kind of way you think about it, God wants good things for the world, good things for his people, and there's also a lot of evil in the world. So a lot of people then will say, like, well, how do I make sense of that? Of like the evil one or like the evil in the world is preventing me from getting impregnant. Right. I just, if you're if you are if you faith-based person, are a faith-based person and you are a Christian, just go back to that one passage. It's the clearest thing. Who sinned this person to the person before? That's that was their thinking. Clearly, something bad must have happened. He must be evil, the evil one is doing something. Jesus says, No.

Jesse 47:43

Right.

Doug 47:43

No, it's not like that.

Jesse 47:44

Right. I guess maybe for me, I guess I'm like, I guess the approach that I have taken is I just grieve that it's not happening, but I think I get confused of what what I grieve to God. Am I grieving that that like I I know what you're saying, integrate and grief. And I do think that we like in general to blame something rather than just sitting that it's sad. I am not sure.

Doug 48:10

I'm gonna stop you. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay, Dumbledoor. I would just say, in all of my experience, sitting with people explaining, painstakingly explaining the logical problem of how to solve this doesn't feel good. I we could do it and like really lay it out and then every single bullet point. Right. And at the end, you just go, Well, I'm just I don't feel any better, right? You know, right, because logically it's makes like everything fits together, boom. It's like on paper, like beautiful. At the end of the day, you just go, you just go, Well, I don't care. Sucks. I'm still mad at God. I still think God hates me, you know? Right. And that's always confusing for me because I'm like, well, we're look at it right there. It's right there. Right. Like I we laid it out perfectly that God does not hate you. Right. God wants you to have a baby, and everything is clean, it's all clean, and that there's evil in the world, and that we have freedom, and out of that freedom comes a multitude of things that could happen. And sometimes just there is bad things that happen. Sometimes biologically bad things happen, sometimes natural disasters, sometimes tragedies, loss, all of that exists in our freedom, and we can lay it all out perfectly, and you go, Oh, it doesn't feel any better. Right. I think that's where all most of the work is in that second problem, which is the emotional problem of integrating pain, which we as humans don't want to do, freaking hate. Right. I don't want to integrate pain. Part of the pain that you have to integrate with this topic is I'm mad at God, or I feel like God doesn't love me. That's painful, a painful feeling.

SPEAKER_01 49:52

Right.

Doug 49:53

You have to integrate that. You also have to integrate not be able to get pregnant right now. Right. So it's a lot of integration. I think I think I was just confused.

Jesse 50:01

Are you grieving that you're just sad, or are you grieving that God's not giving it to you? I think I wanted that clarification. I think it's I think my my my growing up brain says, grieve that God's not giving it to you. But that's still then then I'm almost contradicting myself that it like, oh, then it is Jesse doesn't get a baby and this person does.

Doug 50:19

Yeah. I could we could spend the time to convince you that that is not how it works. Right. I but you have that feeling now. Like you have that moral judgment that just popped up. Right. How do you integrate that? One, you can make sense of it, which we could do, but I'm I promise you, I I would just say I've seen before it doesn't necessarily make it feel that much better.

SPEAKER_01 50:39

Yeah.

Doug 50:39

Because you have the feeling. There's a uh psychologist named Jonathan Haidt who wrote The Anxious Generation and a bunch of popular books and stuff like that. He talks about how our moral judgments are sort of just come to us. I would say like it just did for me. I would say our moral intuitions just sort of come to us. He uses the example of an elephant and someone riding the elephant. Sort of like you're on the back of the elephant and the elephant's sort of just going where it goes. And then you, the logical part, are the rider, and you're like, um, yeah, and you're like looking where it goes, and then you're making sense of just what where the elephant goes. He would say, your moral judgments, I would even include your moral intuitions, are just going somewhere. So that's why when it pops up, God just doesn't want me to have a baby. It's just like a moral intuition, it just happens. Right, right, right. And then you have to kind of make sense of that. Logically, we could explain how that doesn't, that's not true, but your moral just gut went there. Yeah. So that's what I'm saying. Processing that and integrating that is the hard part.

unknown 51:41

Right.

Doug 51:41

This is the nerdiest podcast. So hopefully everyone's tracking.

Jesse 51:44

No, no, no, no. No, I think it's just so funny. It's like, I feel like for the emotional part, it's like, okay, am I grieving? You're just saying grief.

Doug 51:53

You're not necessarily even your intuition went there. So you have to incorporate, you have to integrate and process what is happening in your intuition. I do think it's helpful to go, okay, actually logically that I don't think that. Right. But I'm I'm telling you, the logical part won't automatically make all of those feelings go away. You won't be like, that makes sense. I feel fine. Right, right. You're still at the end of the day just sad. Wake up and look up at the sky and be like, God hates me, you know? Right. I think that like not totally, but that's and some people might think that still. It doesn't just magically make all those feelings go away, go away. Processing those feelings, talking about them, being open about them, journaling about them, crying about them, sharing them with people is the way to process that and work through them. Right.

Jesse 52:40

You know, right. It's a hard one.

Doug 52:45

It's a hard one.

Jesse 52:46

That's a hard one because I already have scripts. I think that's what it is. I'm just thinking about I already have scripts of like, okay, if I was like, I'm putting myself in someone listening to this that maybe grew up similar to me. It's like the script that I have in my head is okay, go grieve. I'll go grieve to God that He's not giving it to me. Or I'll go grieve that I'll almost do those things of like, well, what am I teaching? What am I, when is this gonna happen? Whatever. And then it's so you're not even saying it through prayer. You're just saying just be sad. Yeah. Like it's a it's I think that's and grief.

Doug 53:18

I feel like I'm grieving the fact that I feel like God just hates me. Yeah. Even though maybe logically I know it's not true. I feel like those. Think about a relationship. Think about like if someone got mad at you and said something mean, and then you're like, but I know they love me.

SPEAKER_01 53:32

Right.

Doug 53:33

But I'm just sad that you said that, you know?

SPEAKER_01 53:35

Right.

Doug 53:36

It's like both can exist at the same time, you know.

SPEAKER_01 53:38

Right, right.

Doug 53:39

Or like someone you don't get accepted into the college of your choice, and you're like, they hate me. You're like, but they're awesome, and I wish I could go to school there. Both are true. They it feels like they hate you, right? But it's also true that they're great and they don't want to go there the whole time. You just didn't get in. Right. It's the same as true. It's like God doesn't hate you, God loves you and wants what's best for you. And logically, you can make sense of how evil things happen, but it just feels horrible. Right. It feels like God hates you.

Jesse 54:11

Right, right. It's more like there's there's good and evil in the world, and I got pulled this evil card of like more being sad about that.

Doug 54:19

Yeah.

Jesse 54:19

Not that you did anything to pull that evil card. I mean, someone that gets terminal cancer didn't want that card, you know, and then just being sad instead of thinking that it was manifested somehow. Like it's just sad because there is good and evil in the world. There is sad and happy, there is good and bad and bad, or all that. And you just happen to get that card and just sitting with that card instead of thinking that someone handed it to you.

Doug 54:46

And sitting with that card is the hardest thing to do.

Jesse 54:50

I think I get it now. I think I get what you're saying.

Doug 54:53

There's no takeaway, honestly. It's just sit with that. Sit with it, think about it, and process a little bit of this whole thing. Like this one is not a clear cut thing. Yeah.

Jesse 55:05

You know, and so many people have so many different views on it. And there's so many different on the spectrum of it, you know what I mean? Of your thoughts with this.

Doug 55:15

Can't you see how you'd be almost inclined, like the Romans, to just say, you know, it would be easier to just say the gods are mad at you.

SPEAKER_01 55:23

Right.

Doug 55:24

Yeah, it's how they made sense of it. Right. This is so hard. Yes, yes. Like feels like you're bending mentally over backwards and having to grieve and process, you know. The Romans also back then didn't have a big understanding of human psychology and grief.

SPEAKER_01 55:42

Right.

Doug 55:42

You know, they thought if you got really, really angry that it was uh a god putting that temper into you. So they're just trying to make we're all trying to make sense of stuff. Right.

Jesse 55:52

Um, I think they weren't Zeus wasn't a therapist on the side?

Doug 55:56

No. Zeus's therapy clinic.

Jesse 55:58

Yeah, Zeus's therapy clinic.

Doug 56:00

Hopefully, this was helpful. Yeah, just even just like watch Jesse and I sort of bat the topic around. Right.

Jesse 56:06

Yeah, this one always gives me pause. It's a good way, it's a good way to think about it. Like there is so many different thoughts when it comes to faith and you know, higher power and universe and all that. And I hope people were able to integrate whatever they think about that, their their whatever you think about God or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 56:28

Yeah.

Jesse 56:28

Um, but yeah, it's just I can I can see now why I feel like I've just, you know, I'm in that more of like avoidant, like, what does this mean? You know what I mean? Because it's it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense of something that I was grown up to think and thought, and kind of, you know, this is how we integrate this, and then now something that's so pure and so sweet and tender that everyone else is getting, I'm not getting.

Doug 57:00

Right.

Jesse 57:00

Um, and I just think I just wanted to be like, I don't want to think about that. But yes, to just grieve the fact that it is happening to us, I feel like is the way forward.

Doug 57:13

I just think that there are the obvious things that infertility brings up, and then there's the non-obvious things. Yes. And the non-obvious thing that someone is can be wrestling with is I think God doesn't want me to have a baby.

Jesse 57:24

Right. Do you think it really is that Dumbledore doesn't want me to have a baby?

Doug 57:27

I how come I could only think of the name Dumbledore?

Jesse 57:30

What it's Dumbledore.

Doug 57:32

Maybe God doesn't have it.

Jesse 57:33

Dumbledore was the dealer. That's what it is. It was Dumbledore. Thank you for listening to the Infertility Feelings Podcast. We have process groups where we talk about our feelings, um, learn resilience, um, and we go more in depth of all these topics that we talk about on the podcast. So if you are ever needing support, um, you don't have to have it all together to join our groups. Um, you can be at any stage of your infertility journey. We would love, love, love to have you check it out at uniquely knitted.org.

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