We are a self-optimizing society. The desire has been rising decade after decade. We want to be healthier, wealthier, wiser, faster, more fun, more relaxed, and just overall better each year.
It’s not a bad thing, or at least I don’t think it’s a bad thing. It seems very modern, very us. Over the past century, the world has become more individualized and separated. With that separation comes competition and comparison. We seem to all be striving to perfect ourselves and our lifestyles.
Curran and Hill, in a huge meta-analysis of people from 1989 to 2016, found that we are a culture of people who respond to competitive individualism by moving to perfect ourselves and our lifestyles. [1]
We seem to all be fighting for a more perfect version of ourselves all the time.
“Infertility is a disease of the male or female reproductive system defined by the failure to achieve a pregnancy after 12 months or more of regular unprotected sexual intercourse.” That is what the World Health Organization said.
So how does a disease of the male or female reproductive system impact our collective desire to be a more perfect version of ourselves?
Well… Infertility makes you feel like everything is broken and pointless.
Infertility really divides people. Some people view infertility as an opportunity to self-optimize even harder, to be perfect. Others feel like they have lost all their energy for life. For me, I bounced back and forth between the two feelings. I would be perfect and then lose motivation for everything.
Once you realize you are dealing with infertility, it can be really hard to know how to self-optimize. There is, admittedly, so much to optimize. There are supplements, protocols, tracking apps, second opinions, forums to read, and endless articles about what to do.
Do you do everything? How much do you do?
Perfectionism becomes a real problem. Finding that middle way, where you are tuned in, yet self-compassionate, is really difficult.
On the one hand, you want to optimize. There is good research that if you feel in control of your fertility journey, it’s better for you. Researchers found that in 137 women undergoing IVF, low perception of personal control and avoidance coping were positively associated with fertility-related stress. [2]
However, on the other hand, perfect is not really possible. There is an old metaphor in philosophy that asks this question, “When do you have a pile of rice?” If you take one grain of rice and add it to another, that is not a pile of rice. If you keep adding one grain at a time, you will eventually get a pile, but at what point? Furthermore, if you have a pile of rice and take one grain away, is it no longer a pile? At what point is it not a pile?!
Hopefully you get the point. Knowing when something is a pile is impossible. It’s just too vague a thing to know.
The same is true with optimizing your fertility.
At some point you have to say, “I have done a lot to help my fertility journey today. I am going to be kind to myself, practice self-compassion, eat this chicken pot pie, and watch a movie.”
If you never stop optimizing, you can open yourself up to perfectionism. That perfectionism can get connected to your worth as a person, and every time something doesn’t work out, it becomes evidence that you are not worthy to be a parent. That stings.
That is the goal. That is the middle way. Being in control of our fertility journey helps us feel less stressed. Knowing what is happening and understanding the language of fertility treatments is an important part of successfully getting through the struggle to conceive. Working with a collaborative team to best optimize your body and mind feels right and good when you are trying to get pregnant.
Self-compassion protects us from perfectionism. Self-compassion lets us put the laptop away before we read our 50th article at midnight. Self-compassion helps us rest and take a walk when we could be learning and optimizing.
We need both control and compassion.
We get self-compassion through facing the reality that we will never be perfect. Grieving what has happened to our fertility story, letting people in, and allowing others to meet our needs. Self-compassion looks like allowing yourself to stop optimizing, being sad that this has happened to you, texting a friend or your spouse, and then watching your favorite YouTube videos of old Vines from the golden age of the internet. Laughing while you eat just a little bit of ice cream.
The outcome of your fertility story does not determine your worth.
[1] Curran, T., & Hill, A. P. (2019). Perfectionism is increasing over time: A meta-analysis of birth cohort differences from 1989 to 2016. Psychological Bulletin, 145(4), 410-429. https://doi.org/10.1037/bul0000138
[2] Gourounti, K., Anagnostopoulos, F., Potamianos, G., Lykeridou, K., Schmidt, L., & Vaslamatzis, G. (2012). Perception of control, coping and psychological stress of infertile women undergoing IVF. Reproductive BioMedicine Online, 24(6), 670-679. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.rbmo.2012.03.002
Doug 0:00
Alright, Jesse, this episode better be perfect.
Jesse 0:03
You know what I'm expecting from this episode? Perfection.
Doug 0:06
I said episode. Dang it.
Jesse 0:11
Yeah. I'm expecting this. Practically perfect in every way.
Doug 0:18
Would you say that you are a perfectionist?
Jesse 0:20
Would I say that I'm a perfectionist? What if I repeat back every question you ask me on this episode? Would that be perfect?
Doug 0:27
Perfect.
Jesse 0:27
Um. I would say I'm shoesy when it comes to perfection. I think I'm good enough on house chores. House chores. Like the vacuum or does it need to be perfectly vacuumed in like whatever's as like you do?
Doug 0:51
We don't have house chores.
Jesse 0:53
House chores. I feel like a lot of people like their house is like where they have like their perfection.
Doug 0:58
Like the countertops where you have the countertop or whatever.
Jesse 1:01
Like I think I'm good at like I feel like the opposite of the opposite of like the not perfection people would be like it's just good enough.
Doug 1:08
Yeah.
Jesse 1:08
But I think that I have high standards on myself in other ways. Like I feel like things look right.
Doug 1:16
Yeah, like where's your example where you're a perfectionist?
Jesse 1:19
I mean, this weekend we literally did something for someone. It was like a romantic thing, whatever. We like put flowers around everything and did this like candle for this person or whatever. Yeah. Which is like so sweet. And I like couldn't leave. I was like, it's not perfect. I was like, this petal needs to be. We made these like vases with flowers, and I like couldn't, I was like.
Doug 1:40
That's where you're yeah, that's where your imperfection is.
Jesse 1:42
And I think I'm pretty hard on myself when it comes to like if I'm being really honest, just to put us out of that, like socially. Like I think I beat myself up if I feel like I didn't handle a situation. I'm not not that I'm like have like some standard of like, well, but if I say something that's dumb, maybe that's just human beings. Maybe that's guilt and shame. That's what that is. That's not perfection. That's guilt. Perfect.
Doug 2:06
Yeah. Do you don't you don't feel like you're you you don't go through life feeling like I have to be perfect?
Jesse 2:12
No. No. That's exhausting.
Doug 2:17
I don't think I I don't think I go through life feeling like I have to be perfect.
Jesse 2:20
Oh.
Doug 2:20
I like to okay I like to be perfect, but I don't feel like, well, maybe I do like to be perfect. I like to go through TSA perfectly. Do you mean that's an example?
Jesse 2:35
It's like I always feel like when I watch shake my hand after I go through TSA. When I watch you go through TSA, it's like they're handing out awards that day. Like you have the gold. You win the frizz. And you won't even stand with me. That's what I'm saying. Oh, yeah. It's all like throw my shoe. I'm like, oh, do you need socks? Like what? Like, I'll just throw it in there. And you're like, look at me. Like, the computer goes out of the bag, Jesse. It goes out of the bag. I'm like, oh yeah, right, right. And and you will say, like, I can't stand with you. I have to go on my own lane.
Doug 3:05
I want a TSA person to come over afterwards. Like, as I'm like kind of putting my shoes on and be like, hey, I just want you know, great work. Great work. Thank you.
Jesse 3:13
It's like honorary member. Like you get like a sticker of like, you did it.
Doug 3:17
I think there's just little operational things like that that I like to be really efficient with, you know? Like it's fun to be to do it so perfectly, you know?
Jesse 3:26
Yes. I would say you're a perfectionist.
Doug 3:28
Here's like this, like all these little things to do and to do them all great and have it be smooth and like just go like be perfect. Like that, that is fun for me.
Jesse 3:37
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug 3:38
But I don't but but also at the same time, like I could hang a picture and it doesn't have to be like exactly, you know, one foot on this side of the wall and one foot. I can just like kind of eyeball it.
Jesse 3:49
That is me. I'm like, I not that it has to be measured, but I'm like, yeah, it has to look right. If it doesn't look right, yeah, it bothers me.
Doug 3:56
I feel like both of us have uh uh times where we are perfectionists and then times where we're not perfectionists. Does that make us perfect or is that not perfect?
Jesse 4:06
I don't know. But I but I would say I have a lot of perfectionist people in my life.
Doug 4:13
Yeah.
Jesse 4:14
And doing this work for so long of caring for the infertility community, it is definitely something that has been talked about. So I feel very well versed when thinking about perfectionism, being perfect. It is something that is brought up in our process groups and with people online and in our, you know, Discords and like all that stuff that is majorly brought up. So I feel it's so funny, being like I don't know if I would say that I'm a perfectionist, but I feel very well versed in the subject.
Doug 4:44
I have so many thoughts on perfectionism. It's kind of like this when it comes to infertility.
Jesse 4:48
I it's kind of like if you do it like as a language or a culture. It's like if I was like spoke French very well, but I'm not French.
Doug 4:57
Wait, what? What?
Jesse 4:59
It's like I do it's like I it I'm not French, but it it would be like I know French very well. I speak French very well, but I'm not French. Like I know perfectionism and I know what it's like, and I know the pressure, and I'm around a lot of people that are like it. So I'm very well versed. Like you're fluent in this, I'm fluent in what it feels like and what's it like to carry that burden of being a perfectionism perfectionist. But I'm not a perfectionist. That's what I would say. Ansine. Doug, you Doug, Doug, I didn't know I had to bring you here for this. I just want to let you know. I don't know why.
Doug 5:40
Sometimes you just make me laugh. Sometimes the just the things you do makes me laugh. Like saying like conjugating perfectionism wrong while you're talking about perfectionism and how you're well versed in perfectionism is just funny to me. I don't know why that's funny.
Jesse 5:58
Doug, I I I hate, I don't know if this is something that you're aware of. I thought you'd be very aware you are a perfectionist. Not in every single aspect, but you lean more perfection. You are.
Doug 6:10
Yeah.
Jesse 6:11
You're more type A. Actually, you are type A. You're more anxious.
Doug 6:17
I I accept that.
Jesse 6:19
And I feel like, especially when it came to our infertility journey, you were like, we take the shots down to the same minute. We do this perfectly.
Doug 6:28
When I would like Am I learning right now that I'm a perfectionist?
Jesse 6:31
You are. I didn't think that you would need this. Oh my god. Like I feel like when I like that actually is when a lot of my non-perfectionism and your perfectionism came out. Especially when it comes to like doctors and medical stuff and forms, and that's all infertility is like doctor deployments and even an adoption, like filling out the forms, making sure our house was perfectly done for foster care. Like it's stuff like that where your perfection, which I think would make sense that what we're gonna talk about, is there's it's tied to something that's very deep and feelings that are very deeply felt. I think that's when your perfectionism comes out. I think when you are less burdened by something, you're you're a perfectionist less.
Doug 7:14
Yeah. As you're talking, I'm realizing the frame behind you is actually crooked. It is crooked.
Jesse 7:24
We have to fix it. Fix it, fix it.
Doug 7:28
Okay, so maybe I am a little bit of a perfectionist.
Jesse 7:30
Yes. Like I but I mean that. I think when the stakes go up and the feel and and there's either a bigger fear or more that we have to control or deeper feelings, your perfectionistm rises.
Doug 7:50
Yeah.
Jesse 7:50
When you're less burdened, like I wouldn't say if we went to Bahamas right now and sat on some beach, your perfectionism would like come out. Because you're like more unburdened.
Doug 8:01
Right.
Jesse 8:02
Actually, on vacations, though, you are very like never mind.
Doug 8:06
I'm the worst is basically you are not the worst.
Jesse 8:09
Because then you're saying that someone on this that's listening to this that struggles with this is the worst, right? Is that what you're saying?
Doug 8:13
No, no. I was just gonna say, I I think, well, let's just get into it because I think perfectionism and being perfect is the outcome of a lot of different things. And at times, actually, my my perfectionism totally pays off. And it's like the best thing about me. That's and then at other times it sort of starts to eat itself and it becomes a a struggle for me. Yeah. And trying to be, trying to get something really perfect actually is the hurdle that I have to jump over. But then at other times it's it really makes things great, you know? So it's sort of like a it's sort of new, it's almost like neutral. It dep it depends on how I approach it, if that makes sense.
Jesse 9:01
And I I like that you said that's a good thing.
Doug 9:02
Like I'm particular about things for sure. And I like to get things right, you know, and I like to like do something perfect. I sometimes I've said to, I think I've said to you in the past, I've said, like, I love being perfect. And you're like, what do you says that? And you're like, what do you mean? But I'm like, what I mean by that is not being like morally perfect or right.
Jesse 9:26
You don't struggle with guilt and shame like me.
Doug 9:28
No, or or like being like doing everything perfect. I just love like doing something perfect, you know, like all that was perfect.
Jesse 9:35
That didn't define that anymore.
Doug 9:37
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A perfect example is uh being a waiter. So my first job was like when like when I was younger, I was a waiter. Yeah. And I loved being a perfect waiter.
Jesse 9:46
So Cheesecake Factory, just by the way, all white.
Doug 9:49
All whitecake factory factory, islands. I did work at the Cheesecake Factory.
Jesse 9:55
Islands and Cheesecake Factory.
Doug 9:56
And as you only don't wear all white at the Cheesesteak Factory anymore.
Jesse 9:58
Why?
Doug 9:58
Because they have slipped in their perfection. That's why.
Jesse 10:03
See, I always thought white as all white as a waiter was a horrendous choice.
Doug 10:08
Unless you're perfect. And therein lies my enjoyment.
Jesse 10:13
That's why you worked there?
Doug 10:14
Hence my enjoyment.
Jesse 10:16
All of your white clothing.
Doug 10:17
No, I used to love, I loved like having a bunch of tables, and then it's like, hey, sorry, we sat a bunch of tables. And I just, I would just do it perfectly. I would just order it's perfect. I never wrote anything down as a waiter. And I would just remember. And then there was always that one guy, there's no way you're gonna remember this, and I would just remember it perfectly. And I wouldn't make mistakes and in it, and then the food would go out, and then I just and then a table would leave, and they would be like, that was, you know, great, whatever. And I would just be like, I did that perfectly. And I there's so much enjoyment in that.
Jesse 10:50
So you're saying it's not when the stakes go up, it's just always.
Doug 10:56
I think it's like it's a thing that I enjoy doing, but it also then can also become my Achilles heel. The Greek mythology Achilles heel. It it this is it also is my sometimes my greatest source of enjoyment and actually a superpower I have, but then it's also like my weakest. Can be your dusty. I can be I can be my weakest thing.
Jesse 11:18
I like that you said that because I feel like a lot of times in our groups, I feel like why infertility is so hard for people that struggle with perfectionism or like type A. Yeah. We've already done a podcast on that. Is like it's gotten them.
Doug 11:30
That's different, by the way.
Jesse 11:32
How would you say?
Doug 11:34
I feel like being type A and being a per perfectionist are it's different.
Jesse 11:38
Define. I feel like being I would say they were hand in hand. That's what I would say.
Doug 11:44
I know a lot of A-type people who are like also just like, whatever it's close enough. Just get going, go forward, go forward, get it done. You know what I mean? But then perfectionists are a little different. They're like almost can actually sometimes not be, they don't come across as very type A because they like spend so much time on something. Do you know what I mean? Like sometimes a type A person is just like, we have to get this thing done. We have so just like get it organized, get it done, and get it out the door. Like in a work context, right? But then a perfectionist is sometimes is also like, no, it's not perfect yet. And like we gotta tweak it. And they're like, what is wrong with you? Like sometimes perfectionists are a are creative people sometimes.
Jesse 12:24
Yeah.
Doug 12:25
Sometimes they're organized, but I they're just they're just to me, they're different. To me, they're different.
Jesse 12:29
In creativity, my perfectionist comes out, I think, more.
Doug 12:31
Yeah, yeah. But you're not very type A. But you can be a perfectionist at times, yeah, yeah.
Jesse 12:37
I guess, yeah. I can be when it comes to creativity, I think I can like know it's like that's good or that's not good.
Doug 12:45
Yeah.
Jesse 12:45
Like that kind of thing. Yeah. So then my family's like that.
Doug 12:48
Yeah.
Jesse 12:50
Type A people can be good enough people, you're saying.
Doug 12:53
Sometimes, yeah.
Jesse 12:54
Where it's just like, all right, we just gotta type A this and get it out the door or whatever. I'm thinking about one of your friends, actually. Like that he is very type A, but he's not like it has to be perfect.
Doug 13:03
Right.
Jesse 13:04
You know?
Doug 13:04
Right.
Jesse 13:05
And then a perfection, a perfectionist is more like it has to be perfect.
Doug 13:12
Right.
Jesse 13:12
And I would think that a perfectionist is more saying something about the person. It's perfectionist is more emotional.
Doug 13:21
I think it's it's I think at some level it's a personality trait. Like if you're a big Enneagram person, I think aren't ones the perfectionists.
Jesse 13:29
Yes, yes.
Doug 13:29
So there's like a personality trait to it. I also think there's like a I go to one and there's a sense of control that comes from like perfectionism. Lit there's a little bit of control in there. There's a like, I think it will work if it's perfect. And if it's not perfect, it won't work. And the perfection, like the perfection lies on my, it's my responsibility. Right. There's I feel just like there's a lot going on with it.
Jesse 13:50
Yeah.
Doug 13:51
Which then you have infertility. That's a biatch. Well, yeah, it just complicates.
Jesse 13:57
I'm still trying to understand the difference between type A and perfection. Because I would have totally said they are hand in hand.
Doug 14:02
But I see how there's like type A is not a real, it's not really a real thing. It is a real thing, but there's not like it's- You mean it's not even in the dictionary?
Jesse 14:10
What do you mean?
Doug 14:11
I mean it's in the dictionary, but like where type A came from was sort of like a loose sort of psychological breakdown of people. And there's A-type people and B type people, but it's not like it's not it's not.
Jesse 14:23
It's not like a quality trait.
Doug 14:25
It's not like a hard and fast rule of like, well, I'm an A-type. And then it's sort of just a loose way of describing people who are a little more on it, organized, you know. If you were to want to try to like really go into like personality types, you would do like Myers Briggs or Enneagram or something like that. That's more more probably more accurate way to offer, or just understanding personality.
Jesse 14:49
Yeah.
Doug 14:50
A-type is just a loose categorization. Yeah. I don't know if that helps or if that makes it more complicated.
Jesse 14:55
I think I think perfectionism is a relentless pursuit of flawlessness.
Doug 15:02
Yeah.
Jesse 15:03
Tide.
Doug 15:04
Oh, that sounds so amazing.
Jesse 15:09
To to achieve.
Doug 15:10
The only thing better than perfection is flawlessness because if that's what the TSA person said to me, just walked up and just said, hey, bro, Escalino, flawlessness. Oh my gosh. I would be like, oh my God. Oh my gosh. I wouldn't even take the flight. I would just go home. I'd be like, done. I don't even need to go on vacation. Just, hey, bro, flawless. I'm just, oh, thank you. That's all I want.
Jesse 15:36
Flawless. You know, what's funny is I think when it comes out, it's at Disneyland.
Doug 15:39
Oh, yeah. Disneyland's a perfect place for that. Yes.
Jesse 15:41
Or I like, I'm in the Starbucks line and I'm like, people are taking too long. I walk up. My name is Jesse. I want this. Do you have a pass? Yes, here it is. Here's my thing. Did great. And one lady was like, wow.
Doug 15:52
I was like, and if she said flawless flawless.
Jesse 15:56
I'm looking for flawless.
Doug 15:57
Thank you.
Jesse 15:58
I'm looking for flawless.
Doug 15:59
Yeah.
Jesse 15:59
So I think it's an extr but I like the word extreme. Yeah. Even though that's probably not great. Well, like extreme pursuit of flawlessness and also extreme self. Like something about the perfectionism is telling yourself something. And I think it's it actually what lies in there is self-criticism. So it's a relentless pursuit of this flawlessness with self-criticism.
Doug 16:30
Yeah. I think the the trigger that makes it good and bad is in that relentless pursuit. Like what is what does that actually look like? Yeah. If there's no self-compassion.
Jesse 16:41
Right.
Doug 16:42
And if there's um almost like a cruelty and like a and like a meanness to yourself if you're not perfect, that's where it all goes bad.
Jesse 16:52
Right.
Doug 16:52
And when the stakes go up, that's where it gets harder to control. Like TSA, you know, I and so many times I will like, I'm want to be so perfect. And then I just totally, they're just like, what are you doing? You know what I mean? Yes, yes. I don't take my belt off or something. They're like, you didn't take your belt off? I'm like, oh my gosh. I totally but I don't like care. I more like laugh at myself and I'm like, I didn't do it perfect.
Jesse 17:14
Right.
Doug 17:14
But when the stakes goes up, like something like trying to get pregnant, that's where a lot of cruelty and you know the compassion goes out the window.
Jesse 17:23
Right.
Doug 17:24
And it becomes obsessive.
Jesse 17:26
Right.
Doug 17:26
Obsessive perfection.
Jesse 17:28
Right.
Doug 17:28
That's and that's where it's just so many of us live in there, you know. And especially if you're more like that.
Jesse 17:33
Right. And it's so hard because infertility is already hard enough.
Doug 17:37
Yeah.
Jesse 17:38
Without a self-critic, someone telling you that you suck. So you're trying to be flawless, that relentless pursuit of flawlessness. Then when something doesn't happen, that's when that self-critical voice goes, Oh, you suck. You didn't do it perfectly, you didn't do it flawlessly, you didn't uncover this rock, you didn't like do this or whatever. And it's infertility is already hard enough.
Doug 18:00
Yeah.
Jesse 18:01
Just without that. Like that is just such a burden, a burden to carry. You know, that infertility is just ripe, is just ripe for that to be really difficult.
Doug 18:13
Yeah. I remember um some of like the some of like the dumbest jokes ever that people would say when they find out you're struggling or you're trying to get pregnant or something like that. And you're like, yeah, we're trying. And then like somehow this was a joke that people would say, like maybe just guys or something, they would be like, Are you sure you're doing it right? You know? Like, stupid joke, you know.
Jesse 18:32
So funny.
Doug 18:34
Yeah, maybe they're just trying to make up for like the uncomfortable feeling, but they be, you know, like, yeah, we've been trying, like, oh, are you sure you're doing it right? Oh, but sorry, do you that's right, that sucks. You know, just to try to like make it better. But I think that question and that joke, are you sure you're doing it right? Like, um is actually the core, is actually yeah, it's it's not funny, but also it's actually the core of one of like where the perfectionism lies, you know? Because obviously you're like, well, yes, we know how to like have sex to try to get pregnant, but then then it just goes deeper and deeper and deeper. You know, as soon as you go to treatments and are you doing are you sure you're doing it right? It's like that stupid joke just lingers in your head of like, well, if you can we time it right? Is our diet right? Uh did we wait right? Are my numbers right? Am I doing it right? Are you are you am I sure I'm doing it right? And like with this some stupid joke at a like at like a at like a bar or something like that, just rings in your head. And that's where I think the perfection lies. Of like, if I was doing it right, then we would be pregnant. Right. And then you just now you're off to the races and you're screwed and you're just completely just like trying to figure it out.
Jesse 19:49
I think too, it's a deep fear of failure and a belief that your self-worth is tied to your flawless performance. So if you do it flawlessly, you won't fail. But infertility is full of failure. It's full of failures to little tiny little failures to big, huge, massive failures, to little tiny traumas to big, huge, tiny traumas. And if that, if if your flawless performance is then I won't fail, and then you do, and then that is tied into you know, I must have not done it flawlessly, and then your sense of self. That's really hard. That's really, really hard. And just infertility, I just say it again, it's like it's already hard enough. And then to add that to the pile is just heavy, it must be very exhausting.
Doug 20:49
Yes. Where do you feel like perfectionism pops up in infertility? Is it just like in general? Is there having gone through all the treatments and stuff like that? Are there is it the treatments that make you feel that way? Is it the trying? Where does it come up?
Jesse 21:06
I think in infertility, it's a great massive chasm. I'm gonna use that word. Wow of feeling out of control. And I think perfectionism, trying to be perfect, and infertility is you're trying to control it. Is it's chasm?
Doug 21:26
I don't know if cat was chasm the right word. I'm going with it.
Jesse 21:31
Like a big like a big just a big feeling of out of control.
Doug 21:38
I was trying to use the word chasm. I think chasm is a great word. Okay, so there's a big chasm full of out of control.
Jesse 21:45
Yes. So the perfectionism comes from the feeling of being out of control. So if I can control it, then nothing will go wrong and I'll get what I want. So I think that's the biggest way that perfection. It's a gift to perfectionism. It's like do these things on these days, do da da da da da da. Even if you're not even in treatment, have sex on these days and do this and diet. Like it's just like it's a gift because you're feeling so out of control that and you feel like you have no control because you never thought this would happen to you either. You never thought infertility would be your friend. Right. That you didn't want. Um, and so I think with perfectionism and how it comes out of fertility is just you're trying to control it. You're trying to get some because you feel so out of control. You feel so out of control.
Doug 22:34
Totally.
Jesse 22:34
So I think it comes out in that way.
Doug 22:36
So you think it's a response to the fear of being out of control?
Jesse 22:40
Yes.
Doug 22:41
Is if it's a way to not be out of control. I'll be perfect.
Jesse 22:44
I need infertility and I feel out of control. What can I do about it? Try to be perfect.
Doug 22:49
Yeah.
Jesse 22:50
I think some people handle that differently. But I think when it comes to being perfect or a perfectionism, that's what it is. Is it's like, I feel out of control. What have I done in the past to make it to control my life or whatever? Yeah. And it's like, so let me do it that way. And if that is your go-to to be perfection, be a perfectionist.
Doug 23:08
You know what we might keep using your eyes. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm thinking, do you know what we hear a lot of people say in our groups, which we've like been the such an honor to like have run so many groups and and like heard so many still very well versed in this subject. Yes, some say fluent. Some say fluent um is people will say this round, we're throwing everything at it. You know, like this is this is the round where we're just like they'll say something like we're throwing everything at it in the in the kitchen sink. Like right, just we're doing everything we possibly can so that when we, you know, if it works or it doesn't work, we can feel like we checked every box. To me, that is just, and if you've said that, totally okay. We said that.
Jesse 23:51
I said that the one time we did IVF. That's exactly what I said.
Doug 23:54
But to me, that's like that is uh such a perfectionistic scenario. Right. We are gonna do this one perfect, and if it doesn't work, well then we can rest on the fact that we were perfect, which it's you're entering into sort of that perfectionistic game by saying, well, we'll do this one perfect, so that that can be our consolation prize if it doesn't work is we know we did it perfectly.
Jesse 24:20
But what's funny about perfectionistic people and people that struggle with perfectionism and being perfect is even if they did it perfect, they would probably find some flaw that they didn't do it perfectly if it didn't work out.
Doug 24:30
Well, this is the number one thing that that like a Lord of a little bit of a lot like this is also the this is also the number one thing that I feel like uh it's hard to accept this fact, but that this is it. There is no perfect perfect perfect doesn't exist with infertility at all. Anywhere you kind of there is no perfect. That's the problem with perfect. Perfect is not something that you can do, it's sort of a concept that you use. Do you know what I mean?
Jesse 25:08
Right. I think it's a con I think it's a way to cope.
Doug 25:11
But even I want to do it perfectly. What does that even mean? There's always a way that you could sort of optimize something a little bit better. It's not really a thing, you know, it's not achievable. That's the whole point of perfect, and that's the trap of perfect at the same time. Is we're gonna do this round perfectly. And if it doesn't work, you know, at least we know we did it perfectly. We listen, we at least we know we did everything. But you that's the the very thing that you can't do is everything.
Jesse 25:41
And I think that's what happens is afterwards, if it doesn't work, that's what they find. Yeah. That that's the that's the sadness that they feel is like, well, I did it perfectly, but I probably could have done this better.
Doug 25:50
And I think you can use that language sort of as a placeholder to mean we're gonna try a bunch of stuff, you know, more than we've tried in the past.
Jesse 25:59
Right.
Doug 25:59
And we're really gonna pay a lot of attention to it and we're gonna give it a really big effort. We're gonna we're gonna do it perfectly, we're gonna do everything. But as long as there is a very, I don't know, very like open conversation about the fact that that's not possible. It's not possible to do everything.
Jesse 26:15
Right.
Doug 26:15
You know?
Jesse 26:16
Yeah, right.
Doug 26:17
And I know maybe even someone's hearing this and being like, no, yes, there is. I can do everything. I just hope even like like logically, like that's the whole point is you can't do it all perfectly.
Jesse 26:27
What does it feel like to do everything perfect? Because I think this is exactly impertility for you, being more of a perfectionist. What does it feel like for you to do everything perfect and then it doesn't happen?
Doug 26:37
Well, going back, I don't think you can do perfect. You can do what you feel like is perfect. And you feel like, okay, I've done this all, I timed it all perfectly. I, you know, like I everything, I hit everyone.
Jesse 26:50
I mean, we you made us on schedule for our IVF.
Doug 26:52
We were every shot, we you can feel like you did perfect, and the second it doesn't work, that is immediate confirmation that you didn't do it perfect. Yes. So the only way to feel like you did it perfectly was to have it be successful. And then you would have gone, okay, that was that was we did it perfectly and it worked. Yeah. But perfect doesn't exist. So if it doesn't work, it confirms, oh, we didn't do it perfect. So you start then going into this sort of frantic search through we could have done this, we could have done this, we could have done this, and then you come up with this long list of things of well, well, I guess we didn't do it perfectly. So we got to try it again and we'll do it perfectly this time.
Jesse 27:31
Right.
Doug 27:31
And if it works, it's perfect. Yes. But if it doesn't work, it's not perfect. Yes. Perfect, it's just not a good measuring stick for your effort.
Jesse 27:39
Right.
Doug 27:40
You know?
Jesse 27:40
I know if you call it perfect if it succeeds, yeah, then you have to say that it's unperfect if it doesn't.
Doug 27:46
Yes, that's where it's like it is, it is sort of a mental trap. Yeah. And again, you can be like, I'm like that. Like I want to be perfect.
Jesse 27:54
Yes.
Doug 27:55
But if it becomes sort of an obsessive and it and it has to work, that's where all of a sudden the perfection and the constant self-optimization becomes not compassionate. And it's not actually helping anymore. It's actually there is a lot of well, I'll say this. Can I change gears a little bit?
Jesse 28:15
Wait, I just wanted to say the outcome of infertility in any way, in any outcome, shouldn't, even though it does, shouldn't tell us anything about ourselves.
Doug 28:28
Yeah, that's the hard part. That's hard. That's hard for me to even accept.
Jesse 28:32
I know, me too. Me too. It's like, but it shouldn't tell us anything about ourselves.
Doug 28:36
Yeah.
Jesse 28:36
It's not a pass or fail. It's not a succeed and a failure. But it's so hard too, because our culture, I feel like, makes it like, well, if you have kids, then you've succeeded. And if you didn't, you didn't. Yeah. You know what I mean? But like, uh, that's just so hard. It shouldn't, it shouldn't, the outcome shouldn't tell us anything about what we think about ourselves. Right. It's like the effort with infertility doesn't always match the outcome.
Doug 29:00
Right.
Jesse 29:00
You know, you could do it perfectly, yeah. And it still could not work. I think that's interesting though. And part of me wasn't called that it's per a perfectionist. If it works, then I did it perfect. If I didn't, I'm not perfect. It's like that can't, both of those can't exist. Right.
Doug 29:17
And I want to say sometimes. That happens a lot.
Jesse 29:24
Yeah. Yeah.
Doug 29:26
You know?
Jesse 29:27
Yeah.
Doug 29:28
I think we trick ourselves into thinking that we play a huge role in everything that happens. And we do in a lot of ways. Right. There, like self-responsibility, effort, those are all important things. But I sometimes I think we can convince ourselves that really it's all on us. It's all on us. Yeah. Yeah.
Jesse 29:47
You act you didn't really answer the question though. When you do something perfect and it doesn't work, like in for like I our IVF, you kept us very on schedule, whatever. You said you said you felt a sense of franticness.
Doug 29:59
Yeah.
Jesse 30:00
So is that what you felt? Feel? Yeah. That was what someone feels when it doesn't the perfect didn't work out.
Doug 30:09
Let me try to feel on the podcast live.
Jesse 30:12
Do it, Jack. Let me light a candle.
Doug 30:17
What does it feel like?
Jesse 30:21
I would say this. One of our adoptions. I don't know, IVF, one of our adoptions that didn't really.
Doug 30:30
I think we feel like a sense of free falling or ungroundedness. Panic distress.
Jesse 30:50
Kind of like now what do I do?
Doug 30:52
Yeah, it's so like you're out of a plane with no parachute, you know? There's no plan. Something, I have to fix something. And then as soon as you highlight the five or six things that you could have done differently, and those are the reasons why it didn't work, dang, it should have worked. But let's, you know, here's five new things. All of a sudden you have a plan again and you feel a bit more comfortable. But you're sort of it's that is only reinforcing that sort of obsessive idea, you know, that I have to be perfect. And as soon as you find the things where you weren't perfect, it cements into your mind, oh shoot, okay, I wasn't perfect. So there is like this there's an obsessive search for how I can be perfect, you know? Because I just got confirmation that I'm not. It didn't work. Now I'm obsessively searching for what I did wrong. So I would say there's not a lot of feelings involved, actually. It's sort of a you're not present. You're you're a little bit.
Jesse 31:57
I think feelings come later, but in the moment you're seeing it's obviously you're sad it didn't work.
Doug 32:02
Obviously, you're over you're you're you can be depressed, you can be anxious. It's all I mean, it's so sad and overwhelming. Right. But the the obsessiveness to figure out how to be perfect enters quickly back in, you know. Yeah, like sometimes even you know, you can go through a missed something and or a bad result and that night you're googling this, this, and this, this, this, you know.
Jesse 32:28
If perfect is all about control, and we think if we have control, it's kind of like I I feel like control maybe is trying to avoid something. So you I because I feel like it's easier to control or blame ourselves that we weren't perfect than to think about how awful this is.
Doug 32:49
Yeah.
Jesse 32:50
I think we need to use the word awful more with infertility.
Doug 32:52
Awful.
Jesse 32:53
Awful.
Doug 32:53
I love the word awful. I know.
Jesse 32:55
It's like how awful. Like that's different than like how sad this is. Like it is sad, but it's like how awful this is. The summer's over.
Doug 33:01
We're back at podcasting. We got chasm. We got awful. We got some new words for you, folks.
Jesse 33:07
Got some new words. Like, I just think folks.
Doug 33:11
Nobody says folks.
Jesse 33:14
Especially like that. It doesn't sound like you're saying folks.
Doug 33:16
Folks, folks, folks. Is it folks or folks?
Jesse 33:20
I think you're thinking of the bird in Harry Potter. That we had a debate over if it's what did we say?
Doug 33:30
You thought it was forks. I thought it was forks. I thought it was Fox.
Jesse 33:34
You didn't think it was Fox. I thought it was forks.
Doug 33:37
Fox. Can someone What is Dumbledore's Dumbledore's bird's name? Is this Phoenix? His name Fox. And you said it was forks.
Jesse 33:49
I said it was forks, and you said it's fox. I don't know what you said so long ago. Anyway, I think that. I think perfect is about control. You're trying to control because you feel out of control. Um, but I think we use control to avoid that this is just awful. Because it is awful. And then especially for a perfectionist who's like, but I was perfect. I mean, even our school system growing up, A plus is perfect. Like, it's like, but I was perfect and I didn't get an A. I got a failure. I think that is tied in there too. I think perfectionism has a lot to do with failure.
Doug 34:32
I wanted to connect sort of something that happens in our culture with infertility and also some research.
Jesse 34:43
Okay, philosophy. Is that what that is?
Doug 34:48
No, I don't think that's philosophy, but uh I like it. Um, should we announce to the podcast that I'm uh pursuing a PhD? No one cares.
Jesse 34:59
Did you like to work that into this?
Doug 35:01
Yeah, but I am soon. Uh very soon I'll be a PhD student. Cheers.
Jesse 35:08
Cheers to you, honey.
Doug 35:11
That's exciting. For the late nights. That's exciting.
Jesse 35:13
Uh that is exciting.
Doug 35:14
Uniquely knitted. Last time you was the infertility feelings podcast will have uh PhD somewhere in there.
Jesse 35:19
Last time he got his master's, he was so stressed that he saw spiders on his arms. So hopefully that doesn't. And and they're what will I see now? And they weren't there, they weren't real.
Doug 35:28
Yeah. Has anyone ever had that happen to them?
Jesse 35:31
He was so stressed out.
Doug 35:32
I saw a spiders.
Jesse 35:33
It was during our adoption age. So that also had something to do with it.
Doug 35:36
Yeah, that's the like that's the worst feeling in the entire world. I thought I saw a spider on my hand, and I went, I freaked out, and I was in a meeting, and I was like, ah, I like, and then and then I was like, oh, there's a spider on my hand. And then very quickly I realized there was no spider on my hand. And then I like I stepped on it on the floor and I was like, oh, I I got it. I got it. I killed it.
Jesse 35:58
You said it happened twice. I think you said it happened.
Doug 36:00
I think it happened three times. Yeah.
Jesse 36:02
You saw spiders. Yeah, it wasn't there.
Doug 36:04
But apparently that's like that can happen in extremely stressful environments. So maybe I'll see, maybe I'll see like alligators this time.
Jesse 36:12
Oh.
Doug 36:13
Hopefully that doesn't happen. I'm much more regulated and my uh mental health is in a better space than it was.
Jesse 36:18
And we were we were trying to adopt and we had two failed adoptions in that time. But yeah.
Doug 36:24
And I was trying to, you know, study metaphysics or something like that.
Jesse 36:27
Right. Which no one knows about it.
Doug 36:29
Um in the going back to what I was saying is something that happens in our culture, and I I think that probably everyone can kind of understand this move. And I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm not critiquing it at all. I'm just saying it's there, it's totally there. The culture of optimization. Does that make sense? River, like think give me, let me give you a couple examples. Um, love him dearly. Andrew Huberman's podcast, where it's like biohacking and understanding your sleep cycle. I love him, but understanding your sleep cycles and understanding this. And there's a he's got a cardiologist on, then he's got a workout expert on, then he's got a stress expert on, and you're sort of piecing together this optimized life, and so on and so forth. There's, I mean, there's so many different podcasts and and um books and all these sort of things, even into the fertility space. Right. That is sort of the way that you approach uh improving, talking about, thinking about your fertility is it's sort of in the optimization vein. There's no one big giant major thing to make a person more optimized, if that makes sense. It's it's usually a lot of different things.
Jesse 37:47
Right.
Doug 37:48
How do you um how do you feel better in life? What a really tough question to answer. Right. How do I, how does how in this year can I just be a little, feel a little better, grow a little bit? Um, it's it comes for everything. Mental health, physical health. It's true. Optimization is sort of the way that we view how to grow. Small incremental steps here and there. Um, my sleep is all jacked up. All right, let's focus on let's optimize your sleep. Uh, my metabolic system is all messed up. All right, let's balance out your metabolic system. Mental health. I like I'm there's really bad mental health practices, you know. Right. Okay, let's take one small step here and there. Fertility is in that same exact space, and it's definitely optimization. Like a lot of the books that come out about your fertility are about how to optimize your fertility. I'm that's not this is not a critique. It lends itself to uh sort of a self-obsessed perfectionism. I'm not no one is preaching that. They're not preaching that. They're not saying, yeah, you should be obsessed with optimization. Right. But it's there. They are optimizing. And without good breaks for your mental health, if you're a sort of profession perfectionistic person, you will follow that optimization to an unhealthy place.
Jesse 39:15
And I think you're saying it's in our ethos everywhere, right?
Doug 39:18
It's just everywhere. Like that's sort of how we view getting better, like how we view being healthier, right? Being more fertile, getting pregnant is optimize, optimize, optimize. And a lot of times you do a consultation with a clinic and they're like, how do we optimize your fertility? Right. And that is all good. Like this again, not a critique. Without the brakes on your mental health for perfectionism, that becomes a you're sort of barreling down a hill and it's hard to find where the brakes are. You know, it's like have you ever run? Have you ever run down a hill so fast that you're like that, like uh your legs are moving a little too fast, and you're like, Yes, I have done that. You know what I'm talking about? Yes. We're like, this is I can't run this. Like, this is too fast for me. Right.
Jesse 40:07
And then I fall.
Doug 40:08
And then you're like, I don't really know how to stop besides massively falling, you know, and you kind of just go face first. Um I feel like the the perfectionism can kind of feel like, oh, I'm running too fast and I don't know how to stop. I just need to keep perfecting, keep optimizing, keep going, keep going. And then there's so much optimization literature. There's so much optimization stuff to consume. Now there's AI that you can ask. Yeah. And you can put in all of your numbers. The reason I'm saying all of this is there's actually good research. And we could cite it in the notes to the podcast, but there's good research that says optimization can lead at, you know, if it's sort of unfettered optimization with no self-compassion, can lead to a worse quality of life. It actually, you know, in pursuit of a quality of flawlessness. Yeah, like in the pursuit of flawlessness and a better quality of life, better fertility, better health, all those kind of things, unfettered perfectionism and optimization without self-compassion actually sort of counterintuitively leads to a worse quality of life. Does that make sense? Yes. It leads to a more anxious, more, more obsessive. Self-critical. Yeah, more self-critical. Umcompassionate. And you're like, this, this, this optimization actually isn't helping me anymore. It's actually hurting me because I'm I'm self-consumed with my own optimization. And fertility is just smacked out right in the middle of that conversation.
Jesse 41:43
I would say that flawlessness and optimization without grace.
Doug 41:48
Yeah, totally.
Jesse 41:50
Is not yeah, it's like that feels like it's a disaster. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know what disaster is too strong of a word, but like I don't know what we're doing.
Doug 41:58
It just can lead to like it can lead to the opposite of what you're pursuing. Yes. You know, I want to get pregnant and optimize my fertility. Excellent. Buy some books, listen to some podcasts, talk to, you know, uh of course, talk to your doctors and yeah, yeah, talk to your doctors and start to optimize. If if it becomes a sort of self-obsessed, compulsive thing that you're doing, right, and and you know, there's no self-compassion, it can actually lead to the opposite of what you're pursuing. Yes. More anxiety, more frustration, um, and a worse, sort of like a worse outcome than sort of what you're going for. You're wanting to be healthier and get, you know, get pregnant and have all these things happen. But then the the perfectionism can actually kind of interrupt that.
Jesse 42:42
Flawlessness without grace. Yeah.
Doug 42:47
Which leads- That would be difficult. Which leads to sort of like, I feel like such a tough conundrum for a lot of the things that we talk about in the mental health space, which are it's a good thing, but then it becomes a bad thing.
Jesse 43:02
Yeah.
Doug 43:02
It's good at this much. Like one glass of wine is awesome if you enjoy wine or if you can drink and stuff like that.
Jesse 43:10
Right.
Doug 43:11
27 glasses of wine, not so good of a thing, you know. Um being me loving to be perfect at TSA, funny, great. I can't fly anymore because I'm afraid I won't do TSA perfectly and I won't be perfect enough. All of a sudden it's a bad thing.
Jesse 43:29
Like it's like how loyalty can be an amazing gift and a detriment. Yeah.
Doug 43:34
Like optimizing my health. Right. Great thing. Listening to a podcast about sleep cycles, becoming so obsessed with it and wanting to do it so perfectly that it it isolates me and starts to make me make makes me more anxious and a little more obsessive. Bad thing. And and fertility is right in that. I want to learn a little bit about my fertility. I want to grow. I want to kind of normalize my numbers and things like great, good, awesome. And then it it rolls over at some point. And I think the the the thing that changes all of it is what you're saying grace and self-compassion. Yes. When those two leave, uh, it can get really dark.
Jesse 44:13
Yeah. I would say probably perfectionism and the pursuit of relentless flawlessness without grace and compassion is not very nice.
Doug 44:22
Yeah.
Jesse 44:23
I would say that's just not that's just not gonna be. If you are not nice in your pursuit of trying to optimize and giving yourself a ton of grace, I don't know what I don't know where I'm trying to land with that. I don't want to sound, I'm like, it's just going to probably be difficult. It's like I like that you said like that's the turn. If there's no self-compassion and no grace, I hope that we that people know on this podcast that we are all about the grace, that no one has to have their mental health perfectly. Yeah. We don't, we are not perfect people.
Doug 44:53
We're probably the the friends in your life who will be like the most I will be like probably more on the side of self-compassion and grace than than on the side of optimization. It's like if you didn't do it all right, it's like it's fine. You well, I love hard. Like you need a lot of the, you need to bounce out sometimes.
Jesse 45:10
Yeah. I think as you were talking, I was like, do we do that? Do we like you have to optimize even your mental health? Whatever. And I'm like, I hope we I hope we preach enough of like grace. And I love the whole um thought of like trending. Like, where are you trending? Like, are you trending more to not self-compassion or are you trending to more self-compassion? Like it's not about hitting some marker, it's about like just pausing and being like, am I, did I, was I more self-critical of myself this month or less self-critical of myself this month? Yeah. Not trying to be like, I'm not going to be self-critical anymore. Yeah. It's like that's just going to be probably going to fail. You know what I mean? I love that. That is like for a grace, um, a guilt and shame person, very freeing.
Doug 45:53
Yeah.
Jesse 45:53
To be like, ah, it's kind of like, are you trending more towards self-criticism or grace to yourself?
Doug 46:01
How would you encourage people to get more self-compassion, more grace in their life? What like if someone's like, yeah, okay, I am definitely feeling like I have to do this perfect, how do I get more compassion?
Jesse 46:13
Right, right. I think I've seen a lot in our groups is I think when people have like are trying to do it perfectly, they have a hard time going off their path. If they have this is the path, we're gonna do it perfectly. And then something comes up, something whatever, or you try to pursue something and you're like, I don't know if I like this. I would just say that it's okay to change your mind. I would say there's a rigidity sometimes that I see with perfectionism, where it's like, we gotta do it perfectly and we're on this path and we cannot sway. You know what I mean? And I think it's okay if you change your mind. It's okay if halfway through you're like, oh, this isn't right for us anymore. Like this isn't whatever. Like I think it's okay to change your mind. I think it's not a pass or fail. You are not a failure. You do it perfect, don't do it perfect, you're not a failure. If you end up not with children, you are not failing.
Doug 47:11
Yeah.
Jesse 47:13
It's not a stamp that you have. That's not it. So I think that is like that's where grace and compassion can come from, is like you are not a failure. This is not a pass or fail. This is not an F or an A plus, even though it feels like it. It feels like it. And I think the biggest one is right now, I and I think the biggest one is a sense of like worthiness. I think pref perfectionism is a sense of like, like, like I said, like um, the belief of ourselves is dependent on if I do this flawlessly. So I think what do we think? I think some people that are trying to pursue perfectionism is you don't feel worthy.
Doug 47:54
Yeah.
Jesse 47:54
I'm only worthy if I get the perfect if it's if I do it perfect, if I get the end result, but stop right now. You already are. You already are worthy. Whether this ends with a kid, it doesn't end with a kid, a child, ends in the way you thought it did, any ending, you already are. And it's okay. And I think my big uh another thing that I would say is give people, I want to give people permission to not be perfect. I don't think that a lot of people that struggle with being perfect. I don't even know if some people say it's a struggle. Maybe it's something that they're like, oh, but like people that want to do things perfectly don't ever really get permission to not. It's okay. You can stop. And I'm not saying stop forever. You can stop, you can pause, you can change your mind. You can feel you can take a break. It's okay. It's okay. It's okay to take a break. It's okay to pause. And to tell that self-critical person inside of you to maybe take a break. Maybe like go take a nap for a little bit.
Doug 49:09
Yeah.
Jesse 49:11
You know. It's impossible standards to think if I do it flawlessly, then I'm worthy, then I'm worthy, or then I've made it.
Doug 49:22
Yeah, tying your worth to being perfect is tough.
Jesse 49:26
Right. That's tough. But also I think per I think perfect people are but I also think that no one really gives people that struggle with perfectionism excuses that it's okay to take a break.
Doug 49:39
Yeah.
Jesse 49:39
It's okay to pause. It's okay to feel. It's okay to break down. It's okay to not be perfect. You're still lovable. You still have value. You said it's like a sense of like ungroundingness. You actually said the word frantic. And I think that's what it is. It's like, who am I? If I didn't do it perfectly, who am I? And it's like, you already are it. It's okay to break down, it's okay to show your flaws, it's okay to show that you don't have it all together. Because I don't. And no one is expecting you to have it all together. Maybe the only person telling you you have to have it all together is you. So maybe on this one, you can go, okay, I'm gonna pretend that I don't have to have it all together. It's not embarrassing. It's not embarrassing to not have it all together, to break down, to go to your partner right now and be like, I'm not perfect, and to have that be a feeling. You don't have to be perfect. Like you said, it's a relentless goal of something that's actually no one can be. No one can actually be perfect. And it's exhausting. And I would, I would, I would have a strong bet that if you just gave yourself a little bit of grace and maybe didn't have it all together for an hour or something. I my bet would be, I'm not saying this is absolutely happening, my bet would be though, that you was to feel a little bit of a sense of relief. Because you're probably exhausted. How long can I have this go on? Anything else?
Doug 51:25
I thought you were landing odds every time. Every time.
Jesse 51:31
Nope. Watch out! Don't let me get in my zone.
Doug 51:38
I almost started talking each time. Like, are you what's happening? Just briefly before we close, I would say perfectionism can become an obsessive thought. And there's a like some of not that like an obsessive compulsive disorder like OCD or something like that, but there is a compulsion sometimes with the obsession. I have to be perfect. And then there's the compulsion is to figure out how you could do it more perfect.
Jesse 52:12
Right.
Doug 52:13
And there is a little bit of like a that feeds the obsessive, the compulsion feeds the obsession. Right. You know, right. I want to do it perfectly. Let me research a little bit more of how to do it perfectly. Okay, now I know what we can do. And that come that research is the compulsion, this thing that you have to do when you feel like you're not perfect. The only way to interrupt that is to stop thinking it. It's not the like the self-compassion will come in when those thoughts aren't there as much. And sometimes within this world of trying to get pregnant and feeling like you have to do it perfectly, there are going to be thoughts you have to sort of say, I'm not doing that today. I'm not going to really be paying attention to that. Yeah. And it will feel crazy to just feel like, ah, how can I not pay attention to this thought of like, I want to be perfect and I want to do it better and I want to learn more and read this thing and watch this podcast and read the book and read the chapter. No, if like how if I don't do that, I'm like, I'm like this.
Jesse 53:10
It's like already so, yeah, just exhausting.
Doug 53:12
But that feeling of if I don't do that, then it won't, it won't work. And and then you do it, and that's that that compulsion to go and do it and to read and to know more only sort of reinforces this feeling that you have to be obsessive about being perfect. And then, and then you're on that again. You're on that, you're running down that hill pretty quick. And it's okay not to, you don't want to ignore all of your thoughts and all your feelings, things like that. But it it's all I'm saying is it's possible. And this was for me, and it is for me, that there are sometimes this feeling of, oh, I want to be better. I I want to optimize more, I want to be perfect. That comes up that I have to go, thank you. And this is the self-compassion part. I've done a lot. The people in my life have told me that I'm doing a good job. Maybe my spouse, the person I love, is like, you are, you are so you've gone over and above. You're doing great. I'm going to choose to trust them. And I'm going to say, yeah, I want to be, I want it to work. But those thoughts right now are not necessarily helping. That's the self-compassion part. To say, I'm going to have compassion on myself and say, I don't need to read anything else. We're just going to try with what we have. And we've done a lot. The doctors feel good about it. I feel good about it. This like knee-jerk reaction to obsess comes up and to focus more. I'm going to just ignore that and let it pass. And we're going to watch another episode of my favorite TV show and have Rocky Road ice cream and just be at peace for a second. Like that's the self-compassion to not immediately respond to the obsessive thought about being perfect. That's what I would add. It's counterintuitive to ignore.
Jesse 55:04
It's counterintuitive to ignore.
Doug 55:05
But like Jesse said, you're worthy no matter what. You are worthy to be a parent if you want to be a parent. And being perfect won't make you worthy. And being perfect won't take away the feelings of being perfect. There is no such thing as perfection.
Jesse 55:22
Yeah. And if you're not, if it's the opposite of perfect, is not failure.
Doug 55:29
Yeah.
Jesse 55:29
I don't think.
Doug 55:30
There's just no such thing as perfect.
Jesse 55:32
Yeah.
Doug 55:33
It doesn't exist.
Jesse 55:34
Yeah.
Doug 55:34
Perfect is sort of it's a placeholder for this thought of constant improvement. You know? Right. Right. Like maybe perfect exists in mathematics or something like that. Right.
Jesse 55:45
Right. But not in the human beings.
Doug 55:47
Yeah. Like a perfect equation is one that balances out on either side of the equal sign.
Jesse 55:52
Right.
Doug 55:53
Do you know what I mean? Right. But in in something like human development and and growth and mental health and physical health and fertility and friendship and relationship, perfect is not a it's not something that's even a helpful tool. Achievable. Yeah. It's something maybe a personality trait that we can kind of be like, oh my gosh, I'm so like that. But when it starts to become, I have to be perfect, that's that obsessive thought. And we need self-compassion to say I've done enough. And people play a huge part in being able to trust other people.
Jesse 56:24
And I just had this last thought too of like, if you're going to give yourself compassion, and I'm I'm thinking about the person. I'm I'm really thinking of like the perfectionist that's like, I'm holding it all together, I'm holding it all together. And it's like I almost want to speak into that person to be like, Yeah. I want to speak into that person to be like, it's okay to not have it all together. And what I would say is if you don't have it all together or you are not perfect, it doesn't mean that you don't want it any less. Pursuing the perfectionism and giving yourself compassion and grace, same desire. Same desire to want to have a baby. Same desire.
Doug 57:03
Perfectionists don't want it more.
Jesse 57:05
Perfectionists don't want it more.
Doug 57:07
This leads us to our final question, which is do you feel like this was the perfect podcast?
Jesse 57:13
Well, we were in relentless pursuit of lawlessness.
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